HELP - Time Talk - Time Tech Talk - TimeTechTalk.com

TimeTechTalk.com > Time Tech Talk > Time Talk > HELP

Welcome to 3T! Please take the time to register and join in on the friendly,knowledgeable watch talk.Please note that not all registrations will receive an immediate activation e-mail.Those who do not receive an immediate notification will be activated manually within 48hrs. by an admin. without an e-mail activation url sent to you,you may then sign in using your username and password,if you feel there is a problem please e-mail us at timetechtalk@hotmail.com and include your name and username and we activate your account.Thank You!

Moderated by: 3T

Page: 1 2 3 4

Printer Friendly

HELP

Author	Post

Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 02:07 pm

canadajo
3T WIS

Joined:	Sun Jun 11th, 2006
Location:	Packerland, Wisconsin USA
Posts:	3360
Status:	Offline

first of all thanks to Matt for the schooling... you rock ....but I have to agree with Ken in that I take really really good care of my watches and when I sell them people cant believe that I even wore them ....I understand about temp change and I can see how that might happen but holy crap ...CANT THEY MAKE A GLUE that can go from 80 degrees to 60 degree water ??? ther was nothing that was hard I couldve bumped it on and I wasnt even touching ground or ??? The temp change dissolved the glue in fresh water and for a thousand meter dive watch that is bullshit !!! Where can I buy an insert and I will use Matts schooling to put it on myself ....THANKS AGAIN everyone

Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 02:21 pm

Matt V
3T WIS

Joined:	Wed May 30th, 2007
Location:	Twin Cities, Minnesota USA
Posts:	104
Status:	Offline

KenC wrote: All very interesting, and not to be argumentative, but to me all of this hocus-pocus about chemicals, soap, shampoo, etc....does not compute. We also have the technologies in adhesives to make the glues impervious to chemical agents except those specifically designed to release the adhesive when properly applied.

When I read things like this that tend to absolve the manufacturer of responsibility for poor workmanship/material when something like this happens, I get a little upset. I recognize that this may be the watch manufacturer's, but I also recognize the common sense and experience of the buyers...and virtually all reasonable people would consider an incident like this, especially happening to a WIS who takes great care of his watches, as a manufacturer's responsibility. It is, in fact, an isolated incident of poor workmanship and/or material. If a piece of exterior trim falls off of my warranted automobile, the manufacturer does not tell me about heat, extreme conditions, road salt, chemicals, sea spray, commercial car washes, pollutants, etc. He simply repairs the cars and says, "sorry"!

I do appreciate the tutorial on replacing a bezel...very interesting and informative!

Not to be argumentative here, but I am sick and tired of a society that doesn't give a cr@p about personal responsibility and accountability anymore (sorry to hijack the thread).

The murderer or rapist that quote a bad childhood to excuse their actions, the drunken motorist that killed an innocent driver and uses a "bad day" to justify their wrongdoing in an attempt to avoid the blame for their actions are just the extreme "tip of the iceberg".

My mother taught me to always take responsibility for my actions and as an officer in the army I was accountable for not only my actions but also for those of the men in my platoon.

Therefore it upsets me to no end to see the general attitude of not accepting personal responsibility anymore, especially with product warranties. If it's broken, the warranty will cover it. Doesn't matter if I broke it or not, they'll have to cover it. Their responsibility, not mine. My kid doesn't behave? It's the school/teachers fault, not me! Jobs being exported overseas? It's the bad big corporations, not me or my shopping habits to always go for the lowest price and bringing my $$$ to Wal-Mart instead of the shop around the corner. Where does it end, guys?

Scratched a watch? Got burned by hot coffee? Engine blew up because the "check engine light" was ignored and oild never filled up or changed?

Has anyone of you ever knowingly abused a warranty, not telling the complete truth just to get a freebie out of it, even you knew better?

Come on guys; if you pay retail, the brick and mortar reseller made so much $$$ on your purchase that he can afford to go the extra mile and may make you happy, even though normally a warranty wouldn't cover it. But if you're buying over the internet at rock bottom prices, that luxury is no longer there and you are ultimately responsible for your actions.

It is your responsibility to check (or have someone check) the lug nuts after you got new tires put on and you drove a few miles, it is your responsibility to check (and add/change) the oil on your car.

And it is your responsibility to make sure the crown of your watch is securely screwed down before you go into the water and you are responsible for getting the WR checked regularly by a watchmaker (preferrably before the watch floods on you).

You can't blame the manufacturer if a bracelet opens up on you because you didn't check the links once in a while with preventive maintenance just like you can't expect them to warranty cover that sapphire crystal which got scratched and you assumed was scratchproof. (I had a scratched sapphire crystal once and discovered it must have been my wife's wedding band/diamond that hit it when we were walking holding hands. Bad things happen even to good people).

If a piece of trim falls off your car, if a hubcap falls off, an antenna breaks off, have you ever thought about why/how that happened? Was it really a problem with quality of material or craftmanship or was it indeed that commercial car wash? Or did you accidently bang it into something? No offence Ken, but always falling back into the warm and fuzzy "warranty coverage" absolving the consumer from any personal responsibility (or even the slightest attemtp to find out what really happend) just doesn't do it for me.

A bezel inlay doesn't just fall off all by itself. I know from personal experience that they can be really tough to get off sometimes. An isolated incident of poor workmanship and/or material is just as likely to be the cause as an accidental bump/rip or whatever that went unnoticed.

That's why I have a real problem with this general attitude of "the warranty will cover it", where it doesn't matter what really happened. Experiend driver, WIS etc. or not.

A mechanical watch is a precision instrument and needs to be treated as such for many years of reliable service (maybe even for the next generation). Blind belief in technology can't replace common sense and reality. I'm not talking about pampering them though, but even the most modern material of a springbar will rust and ultimately break if you don't maintain it properly and you may loose that modern 316L stainless steel watch because of such a small cause. Can you justify that a warranty should cover the loss?

Should a bezel that is stuck, because the bezel spring rusted after being in salt water all the time without being rinsed off and lubricated, in fact covered by warranty?

We've got many new WIS coming to these forums looking for knowledge and guidance. Instilling an attitude of entitlement and generally pushing the blame to the manufacturer is way too shallow for my taste, even though sometimes the marketing of watch manufacturers is partly to blame by creating expectations far ahead of reality.

I try to simplify it for myself with a simple "if it's their fault I expect them to fix it, if it's not than I'm responsible".

JM2C and YMMV

Matt

Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 02:48 pm

scottymac
3T WIS

Joined:	Fri May 4th, 2007
Location:	NE Ohio, USA
Posts:	50
Status:	Offline

Yeah, what Matt said! Wait, what now?

"Entitlement?" Wow, I must be pretty bad consumer 'cause after dropping a $1K plus on a watch and the bezel insert pops off, you're damn right I "expect" that to be fixed by the manufacturer.

Are there people that abuse warranties, yeah no doubt. Especially for you Matt, you've probably experienced it firsthand more times than you'd like. I certainly don't support/condone that.

However, to assume that the customer should "know better" and realize it's "no big deal" is a massive problem, and I'd say an attitude that is just as much "wrong" as it is for the customer to knowingly abuse a warranty.

At a very, very basic level we have this:

-Guy buys watch.

-Piece of the watch falls off.

-Guy contacts manufacturer.

Now, how much good is it going to do for the manufacturer to immediately take a defensive position? Should they assume the customer screwed something up? What if the customer is a non-hands-on person? Do you think the pictorial on how to replace a bezel insert would be helpful then?

All due respect Matt, I just cannot get my mind around why it's bad for me to "expect" the company that made my watch to help me make it right again, given these very specific circumstances and the fact that we have ZERO reason to suspect canadajo is trying to hide anything.

Additionally, as I read through the replies here, I don't in the very least get a sense that anyone is encouraging an attitude of entitlement whatsoever. I think everyone sees this was a chance occurence, and naturally assumes that- again, based on this instance- will be swiftly addressed by the manufacturer.

But, like I said, I could just be a bad consumer......

Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 02:49 pm

Paxman
3T WIS

Joined:	Sun Apr 23rd, 2006
Location:	NorthEastern, Wisconsin USA
Posts:	15957
Status:	Offline

KenC wrote: All very interesting, and not to be argumentative, but to me all of this hocus-pocus about chemicals, soap, shampoo, etc....does not compute. We also have the technologies in adhesives to make the glues impervious to chemical agents except those specifically designed to release the adhesive when properly applied.

When I read things like this that tend to absolve the manufacturer of responsibility for poor workmanship/material when something like this happens, I get a little upset. I recognize that this may be the watch manufacturer's, but I also recognize the common sense and experience of the buyers...and virtually all reasonable people would consider an incident like this, especially happening to a WIS who takes great care of his watches, as a manufacturer's responsibility. It is, in fact, an isolated incident of poor workmanship and/or material. If a piece of exterior trim falls off of my warranted automobile, the manufacturer does not tell me about heat, extreme conditions, road salt, chemicals, sea spray, commercial car washes, pollutants, etc. He simply repairs the cars and says, "sorry"!

I do appreciate the tutorial on replacing a bezel...very interesting and informative!

Well put, Ken. I don't care if the air temp was 100 and CJ jumped into 60 degree water. A serious diving watch with a price tag like the Limes better damn well be ready for any eventuality. And there is no reason for CJ to attempt the fix on his own even if they send him the insert!!

Regardless, thanks for the tutorial, Matt. Very informative!!

Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 03:11 pm

Paxman
3T WIS

Joined:	Sun Apr 23rd, 2006
Location:	NorthEastern, Wisconsin USA
Posts:	15957
Status:	Offline

Matt V wrote: KenC wrote: All very interesting, and not to be argumentative, but to me all of this hocus-pocus about chemicals, soap, shampoo, etc....does not compute. We also have the technologies in adhesives to make the glues impervious to chemical agents except those specifically designed to release the adhesive when properly applied.

When I read things like this that tend to absolve the manufacturer of responsibility for poor workmanship/material when something like this happens, I get a little upset. I recognize that this may be the watch manufacturer's, but I also recognize the common sense and experience of the buyers...and virtually all reasonable people would consider an incident like this, especially happening to a WIS who takes great care of his watches, as a manufacturer's responsibility. It is, in fact, an isolated incident of poor workmanship and/or material. If a piece of exterior trim falls off of my warranted automobile, the manufacturer does not tell me about heat, extreme conditions, road salt, chemicals, sea spray, commercial car washes, pollutants, etc. He simply repairs the cars and says, "sorry"!

I do appreciate the tutorial on replacing a bezel...very interesting and informative!

Not to be argumentative here, but I am sick and tired of a society that doesn't give a cr@p about personal responsibility and accountability anymore (sorry to hijack the thread).

The murderer or rapist that quote a bad childhood to excuse their actions, the drunken motorist that killed an innocent driver and uses a "bad day" to justify their wrongdoing in an attempt to avoid the blame for their actions are just the extreme "tip of the iceberg".

My mother taught me to always take responsibility for my actions and as an officer in the army I was accountable for not only my actions but also for those of the men in my platoon.

Therefore it upsets me to no end to see the general attitude of not accepting personal responsibility anymore, especially with product warranties. If it's broken, the warranty will cover it. Doesn't matter if I broke it or not, they'll have to cover it. Their responsibility, not mine. My kid doesn't behave? It's the school/teachers fault, not me! Jobs being exported overseas? It's the bad big corporations, not me or my shopping habits to always go for the lowest price and bringing my $$$ to Wal-Mart instead of the shop around the corner. Where does it end, guys?

Scratched a watch? Got burned by hot coffee? Engine blew up because the "check engine light" was ignored and oild never filled up or changed?

Has anyone of you ever knowingly abused a warranty, not telling the complete truth just to get a freebie out of it, even you knew better?

Come on guys; if you pay retail, the brick and mortar reseller made so much $$$ on your purchase that he can afford to go the extra mile and may make you happy, even though normally a warranty wouldn't cover it. But if you're buying over the internet at rock bottom prices, that luxury is no longer there and you are ultimately responsible for your actions.

It is your responsibility to check (or have someone check) the lug nuts after you got new tires put on and you drove a few miles, it is your responsibility to check (and add/change) the oil on your car.

And it is your responsibility to make sure the crown of your watch is securely screwed down before you go into the water and you are responsible for getting the WR checked regularly by a watchmaker (preferrably before the watch floods on you).

You can't blame the manufacturer if a bracelet opens up on you because you didn't check the links once in a while with preventive maintenance just like you can't expect them to warranty cover that sapphire crystal which got scratched and you assumed was scratchproof. (I had a scratched sapphire crystal once and discovered it must have been my wife's wedding band/diamond that hit it when we were walking holding hands. Bad things happen even to good people).

If a piece of trim falls off your car, if a hubcap falls off, an antenna breaks off, have you ever thought about why/how that happened? Was it really a problem with quality of material or craftmanship or was it indeed that commercial car wash? Or did you accidently bang it into something? No offence Ken, but always falling back into the warm and fuzzy "warranty coverage" absolving the consumer from any personal responsibility (or even the slightest attemtp to find out what really happend) just doesn't do it for me.

A bezel inlay doesn't just fall off all by itself. I know from personal experience that they can be really tough to get off sometimes. An isolated incident of poor workmanship and/or material is just as likely to be the cause as an accidental bump/rip or whatever that went unnoticed.

That's why I have a real problem with this general attitude of "the warranty will cover it", where it doesn't matter what really happened. Experiend driver, WIS etc. or not.

A mechanical watch is a precision instrument and needs to be treated as such for many years of reliable service (maybe even for the next generation). Blind belief in technology can't replace common sense and reality. I'm not talking about pampering them though, but even the most modern material of a springbar will rust and ultimately break if you don't maintain it properly and you may loose that modern 316L stainless steel watch because of such a small cause. Can you justify that a warranty should cover the loss?

Should a bezel that is stuck, because the bezel spring rusted after being in salt water all the time without being rinsed off and lubricated, in fact covered by warranty?

We've got many new WIS coming to these forums looking for knowledge and guidance. Instilling an attitude of entitlement and generally pushing the blame to the manufacturer is way too shallow for my taste, even though sometimes the marketing of watch manufacturers is partly to blame by creating expectations far ahead of reality.

I try to simplify it for myself with a simple "if it's their fault I expect them to fix it, if it's not than I'm responsible".

JM2C and YMMV

Matt

IMHO this is completely unacceptable and disappointing...

Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 03:11 pm

Matt V
3T WIS

Joined:	Wed May 30th, 2007
Location:	Twin Cities, Minnesota USA
Posts:	104
Status:	Offline

canadajo wrote: I understand about temp change and I can see how that might happen but holy crap ...CANT THEY MAKE A GLUE that can go from 80 degrees to 60 degree water ??? ther was nothing that was hard I couldve bumped it on and I wasnt even touching ground or ??? The temp change dissolved the glue in fresh water and for a thousand meter dive watch that is bullS**t !!!
Not that simple (dang, I hate being an engineer sometimes ;))

First of all, it's not about the ambient temperatures. Solar load is what's really is the issue. Ever notice how hot it gets inside your vehicle on a sunny day, even in fall?

We had a wonderful sunny day in the 80's yesterday here in Minnesota and I actually burned my leg on a piece of aluminum patio furniture in a green color that felt more like ~140F (could have even been higher, no idea how much though). face4.gif

Still not close enough to the max. ~170F that cyanoacrylate adhesive (crazy glue) is supposed to handle BUT think of this: your dark blue bezel inlay likely has a lot more temperature rise than the polished, reflective metallic surface of the actual bezel.

Thus, they would expand at different rates (likely also based on the different materials, e.g. aluminum versus steel). This would put stress on the glue (which at high temperatures loses some of its retaining strength). Now I am not sure what glue they used and how it exactly behaves at higher temperatures (e.g. gets gooey and viscose/soft or becomes brittle), but my instinct tells me that that's where the problem likely started. Could the sudden drop in temperature when submerging it in cool water or just the water swooshing in between the bezel and the inlay cause it to come loose? Maybe. I wasn't there so I can't say for sure.

But you've got me curious now: I've got a pretty good multimeter with a temperature head at home and will check surface temperatures based on solar load on some of my watches this weekend. I wonder how hot a black, blue, yellow and silver watch / bezels really get in the sun and how different the temperatures are between them! :)

Cheers

Matt

Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 03:58 pm

KenC
Admin

Joined:	Sun Sep 4th, 2005
Location:	Florida &, Arizona USA
Posts:	11288
Status:	Offline

Matt, my opinion was not meant as a personal attack. It appears as though you took it that way...and I'm sorry you did so, but a subsequent lecture from you on your opinion of the state of our society is unacceptable!

As to personal responsibility, you are preaching to the choir. I'm an old guy who served his country in the military, during war time, voluntarily. I did 2 combat tours in Vietnam, one recon and one as an Infantry Company Commander. I not only had personal responsibility for my men, I was responsible for their very lives. So do not lecture me about personal responsibility.

And while we're at it, your questioning my personal integrity as to how I handle warranty work does not sit well with me either.

That said, we are talking about a $1000 dollar watch with a 1000M rating...we are not talking about hot coffee, rapes, murders or scratches...we are talking about a freakin' bezel that fell off in a couple of feet of water on a watch owned by a guy who takes immaculate care of his watches. If you want to rant about society, feel free, but if this is the stance of MarcelloC watches as to honoring warranties (BTW...I can't find instructions as to bezels and the care and feeding of glue on my Marcello C warranty), then mine needs to go on the market now and I need to stop recommending them.

You know what, watch manufacturers need to accept some "personal" responsibility too. If a freakin' bezel falls off of a watch in 3 feet of water, they need to admit that something is wrong and fix it. I am tired of a society of manufacturers that doesn't accept personal/corporate responsibility for their mistakes...that smacks of Invicta!

Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 05:42 pm

Matt V
3T WIS

Joined:	Wed May 30th, 2007
Location:	Twin Cities, Minnesota USA
Posts:	104
Status:	Offline

scottymac wrote: Yeah, what Matt said! Wait, what now?

"Entitlement?" Wow, I must be pretty bad consumer 'cause after dropping a $1K plus on a watch and the bezel insert pops off, you're damn right I "expect" that to be fixed by the manufacturer.

Are there people that abuse warranties, yeah no doubt. Especially for you Matt, you've probably experienced it firsthand more times than you'd like. I certainly don't support/condone that.

However, to assume that the customer should "know better" and realize it's "no big deal" is a massive problem, and I'd say an attitude that is just as much "wrong" as it is for the customer to knowingly abuse a warranty.

At a very, very basic level we have this:

-Guy buys watch.

-Piece of the watch falls off.

-Guy contacts manufacturer.

Now, how much good is it going to do for the manufacturer to immediately take a defensive position? Should they assume the customer screwed something up? What if the customer is a non-hands-on person? Do you think the pictorial on how to replace a bezel insert would be helpful then?

All due respect Matt, I just cannot get my mind around why it's bad for me to "expect" the company that made my watch to help me make it right again, given these very specific circumstances and the fact that we have ZERO reason to suspect canadajo is trying to hide anything.

Additionally, as I read through the replies here, I don't in the very least get a sense that anyone is encouraging an attitude of entitlement whatsoever. I think everyone sees this was a chance occurence, and naturally assumes that- again, based on this instance- will be swiftly addressed by the manufacturer.

But, like I said, I could just be a bad consumer......

Sorry, but you missed my points somehow.

a) a bezel inlay falling off looks worse than it is. It is no big deal to replace it and IMHO a DIY effort (hence the pictorial). Probably easier and less risk than sending a watch back and forth (as anyone who has ever had a watch damaged or stolen in transit can attest to).

b) immediately having this mishap reflecting badly on the manufacturer is a bit pre-mature IMHO. A single incident is no systematic failure. Innocent until proven guilty. Yes, I am defending Limes here and have no affiliation with them or benefit from doing that. But I can't just chime in and condem them or their watches; seriously, this could happen to anyone, Rolex, Omega etc.

c) Marketing portrays these timepieces as invincible (1000m WR deep sea capable, submarine steel, Navy Seal approved, professional diver used etc. etc.) and manages expectations of performance under any circumstance, yet the reality is different.

Sure you expect certain things from a watch, especially after dropping $1K for it. You have a feeling of entitlement to what was portrayed in the marketing that watch. A 1,000m WR watch should work flawlessly in 3 feet of water etc. etc.

Was it Helmholtz that theorized that there could be no perfect, flawless system?

The reality is that watches are overhyped and not flawless, they are mechanical precision instruments and should be treated as such. Reality is that springbars on submarine steel watches do rust and can fail, that bracelets can come loose and let the watch fall off the wrist. Reality is that watches flood if the gaskets fail under water. Reality is that a dive watch that's designed for 1000m can fail at 3 feet when the crown wasn't screwed down all the way. Are all of these cases the responsibility of the manufacturer and the manufacturer alone, to be covered under warranty?

That's the point I was trying to make.

These things happen (they are mechanical, fer cryin' out loud. Otherwise I'd blame it on the software! :D Disclaimer: I'm a EE).

I have seen a crystal pop out of a Rolex while flying in an airplane and you could argue that should never happen on a $4,000+ dive watch. But a dive watch is engineerd for positive pressure, not negative pressure at altitude. I have seen a dive watch fail in a hot tub and can understand the why (it wasn't engineered for these temperatures). What is odd to me is that noone really seems to expect his $1,000 timepiece to be as accurate as a $50 quartz watch, yet expects almost mythical capabilities from them in other areas. I believe we can't just point to the manufacturer for any disappointment, we should be open to the realities of these mechanical wonders, educate eachother on preventive maintenance etc. and IMHO, we need to take responsibility and accountability for issues that are clearly outside the manufacturers realm.

In the case of a bezel inlay falling out, I am interested in why it could have fallen out.

Yes, I do realize that I hijacked the thread talking about issues that are way above and beyond the bezel inlay that fell off his watch. I didn't mean to sound like he had done anything wrong and I am in no way accusing him of hiding anything.

But until I have a better understanding of what happened, I can't automatically conclude that the manufacturer has done anything wrong either. Not taking any sides here due to lack of facts, just having theories about what may have happened.

And yes, it rubs me the wrong way to see blame being passed, noone accepting responsibilities for their own actions, even though that does not pertain to this particular case (which is why I pointed out that I had hijacked the thread).

My point there again; let's not shoot so fast.

I am not absolving the manufacturer from their responsibility in case the problem was their fault (and you have every right to get it fixed, that has nothing to do with "bad consumer") but let's have all the facts first.

No personal attacks from me guys, I'm just trying to be the voice of reason.

Cheers

Matt

Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 06:00 pm

canadajo
3T WIS

Joined:	Sun Jun 11th, 2006
Location:	Packerland, Wisconsin USA
Posts:	3360
Status:	Offline

Thanks Ken ... for so eloquently stating what I was thinking

Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 06:02 pm

KenC
Admin

Joined:	Sun Sep 4th, 2005
Location:	Florida &, Arizona USA
Posts:	11288
Status:	Offline

Matt V wrote: scottymac wrote: Yeah, what Matt said! Wait, what now?

"Entitlement?" Wow, I must be pretty bad consumer 'cause after dropping a $1K plus on a watch and the bezel insert pops off, you're damn right I "expect" that to be fixed by the manufacturer.

Are there people that abuse warranties, yeah no doubt. Especially for you Matt, you've probably experienced it firsthand more times than you'd like. I certainly don't support/condone that.

However, to assume that the customer should "know better" and realize it's "no big deal" is a massive problem, and I'd say an attitude that is just as much "wrong" as it is for the customer to knowingly abuse a warranty.

At a very, very basic level we have this:

-Guy buys watch.

-Piece of the watch falls off.

-Guy contacts manufacturer.

Now, how much good is it going to do for the manufacturer to immediately take a defensive position? Should they assume the customer screwed something up? What if the customer is a non-hands-on person? Do you think the pictorial on how to replace a bezel insert would be helpful then?

All due respect Matt, I just cannot get my mind around why it's bad for me to "expect" the company that made my watch to help me make it right again, given these very specific circumstances and the fact that we have ZERO reason to suspect canadajo is trying to hide anything.

Additionally, as I read through the replies here, I don't in the very least get a sense that anyone is encouraging an attitude of entitlement whatsoever. I think everyone sees this was a chance occurence, and naturally assumes that- again, based on this instance- will be swiftly addressed by the manufacturer.

But, like I said, I could just be a bad consumer......

Sorry, but you missed my points somehow.

a) a bezel inlay falling off looks worse than it is. It is no big deal to replace it and IMHO a DIY effort (hence the pictorial). Probably easier and less risk than sending a watch back and forth (as anyone who has ever had a watch damaged or stolen in transit can attest to).

b) immediately having this mishap reflecting badly on the manufacturer is a bit pre-mature IMHO. A single incident is no systematic failure. Innocent until proven guilty. Yes, I am defending Limes here and have no affiliation with them or benefit from doing that. But I can't just chime in and condem them or their watches; seriously, this could happen to anyone, Rolex, Omega etc.

c) Marketing portrays these timepieces as invincible (1000m WR deep sea capable, submarine steel, Navy Seal approved, professional diver used etc. etc.) and manages expectations of performance under any circumstance, yet the reality is different.

Sure you expect certain things from a watch, especially after dropping $1K for it. You have a feeling of entitlement to what was portrayed in the marketing that watch. A 1,000m WR watch should work flawlessly in 3 feet of water etc. etc.

Was it Helmholtz that theorized that there could be no perfect, flawless system?

The reality is that watches are overhyped and not flawless, they are mechanical precision instruments and should be treated as such. Reality is that springbars on submarine steel watches do rust and can fail, that bracelets can come loose and let the watch fall off the wrist. Reality is that watches flood if the gaskets fail under water. Reality is that a dive watch that's designed for 1000m can fail at 3 feet when the crown wasn't screwed down all the way. Are all of these cases the responsibility of the manufacturer and the manufacturer alone, to be covered under warranty?

That's the point I was trying to make.

These things happen (they are mechanical, fer cryin' out loud. Otherwise I'd blame it on the software! :D Disclaimer: I'm a EE).

I have seen a crystal pop out of a Rolex while flying in an airplane and you could argue that should never happen on a $4,000+ dive watch. But a dive watch is engineerd for positive pressure, not negative pressure at altitude. I have seen a dive watch fail in a hot tub and can understand the why (it wasn't engineered for these temperatures). What is odd to me is that noone really seems to expect his $1,000 timepiece to be as accurate as a $50 quartz watch, yet expects almost mythical capabilities from them in other areas. I believe we can't just point to the manufacturer for any disappointment, we should be open to the realities of these mechanical wonders, educate eachother on preventive maintenance etc. and IMHO, we need to take responsibility and accountability for issues that are clearly outside the manufacturers realm.

In the case of a bezel inlay falling out, I am interested in why it could have fallen out.

Yes, I do realize that I hijacked the thread talking about issues that are way above and beyond the bezel inlay that fell off his watch. I didn't mean to sound like he had done anything wrong and I am in no way accusing him of hiding anything.

But until I have a better understanding of what happened, I can't automatically conclude that the manufacturer has done anything wrong either. Not taking any sides here due to lack of facts, just having theories about what may have happened.

And yes, it rubs me the wrong way to see blame being passed, noone accepting responsibilities for their own actions, even though that does not pertain to this particular case (which is why I pointed out that I had hijacked the thread).

My point there again; let's not shoot so fast.

I am not absolving the manufacturer from their responsibility in case the problem was their fault (and you have every right to get it fixed, that has nothing to do with "bad consumer") but let's have all the facts first.

No personal attacks from me guys, I'm just trying to be the voice of reason.

Cheers

Matt

Not to belabor the fact...but a voice of reason does not speak in a seemingly emotional rant on the state of society and personal responsibility that impunes and insults the integrity of our members when addressing improperly glued bezel (no...I'm not an engineer. I'm just a reasonable person with common sense that made his living selling products that carried reasonable warranties). A voice of reason does not assume the customer is wrong...the issue was not a scratched bezel...it was a lost bezel insert on an immaculately maintained $1000 watch that came off in 3 ft of water.

Anyone want to buy a LNIB MarcelloC GMT? Box and papers (for what they're worth!)

Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 06:05 pm

Matt V
3T WIS

Joined:	Wed May 30th, 2007
Location:	Twin Cities, Minnesota USA
Posts:	104
Status:	Offline

KenC wrote: Matt, my opinion was not meant as a personal attack. It appears as though you took it that way...and I'm sorry you did so, but subsequent lecture is unacceptable!

As to personal responsibility, you are preaching to the choir. I'm an old guy who served his country in the military, during war time, voluntarily. I did 2 combat tours in Vietnam, one recon and one as an Infantry Company Commander. I not only had personal responsibility for my men, I was responsible for their very lives. So do not lecture me about personal responsibility.

And while we're at it, your questioning my personal integrity as to how I handle warranty work does not sit well with me either.

That said, we are talking about a $1000 dollar watch with a 1000M rating...we are not talking about hot coffee, rapes, murders or scratches...we are talking about a freakin' bezel that fell off in a couple of feet of water on a watch owned by a guy who takes immaculate care of his watches. If you want to rant about society, feel free, but if this is the stance of MarcelloC watches as to honoring warranties (BTW...I can't find instructions as to bezels and the care and feeding of glue on my Marcello C warranty), then mine needs to go on the market now and I need to stop recommending them.

You know what, watch manufacturers need to accept some "personal" responsibility too. If a freakin' bezel falls of of a watch in 3 feet of water, they need to admit that something is wrong and fix it. I am tired of a society of manufacturers that don't accept personal/corporate responsibility for their mistakes...that smacks of Invicta!

Ken, no; absolutely no personal attack or "lecture" or anything like that and I apologize if in any way my post was understood that way by you.

I probably should have started a completely separate post on this subject on a different forum (off topic) rather than hijacking this thread and allowing it to be misunderstood.

Sure, watch manufacturers should stand by their product (and I have gotten rid of some of my own collection when I found that their manufacturer was not standing behind their product or capable of supporting it, even when they were overhyped on some forums). But Limes is no Invicta.

But should Limes be judged because of a single incident that could have happened to anyone and they didn't even have a chance to respond or make it right?

Should I have just kept my big mouth shut rather than sharing my view?

Matt

Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 06:06 pm

canadajo
3T WIS

Joined:	Sun Jun 11th, 2006
Location:	Packerland, Wisconsin USA
Posts:	3360
Status:	Offline

What was really funny was that Matt was preaching not to the choir , but to the pastor

Current time is 10:54 pm	Page: 1 2 3 4
TimeTechTalk.com > Time Tech Talk > Time Talk > HELP	Top

Lead Theme By: Di @ UltraBB
UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2012 Data 1 Systems
Page processed in 0.1266 seconds (35% database + 65% PHP). 34 queries executed.