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TimeTechTalk.com > 3T Official Brand Forums > Kazimon Zeitmessinstrumente > SPECIAL ORDERS/BRONZE CASE 1500 |
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TimeTechTalk.com > 3T Official Brand Forums > Kazimon Zeitmessinstrumente > SPECIAL ORDERS/BRONZE CASE 1500 |
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| SPECIAL ORDERS/BRONZE CASE 1500 | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 09:26 am |
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25th Post |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS 
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You're right, Putnam Dan. Just not sure....would the bronze skeleton bracelet tarnish into green faster than the case because of skin contact? Wouldn't there be some "smell"? Hmmm. Maybe slapping on a tradtional leather strap would do it....but in a dark shade to pre-compensate for any tarnishing/staining??? of the bronze lug horns which has frequent contact with the lug roll side of the strap???
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| Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 09:35 am |
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26th Post |
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Kazimon 3T WIS 
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i will not do a bronze strap at this time. to expensive to do that for small quantity. some question which was asked here: thickness is 17mm from caseback to the top of the glass. also, some asked me about the bronze. i am not using the UNI5275 which is used by Anomino. its known in italy. the bronze i use is German RG7 based on DIN EN 1982. its used for high stressed machines. so its not soft, but bronze is never strong as steel. but the most important point why i use this bronze is, it is seawater resistant. so please dont get fooled always by big brand marketing. Last edited on Thu May 27th, 2010 09:36 am by Kazimon |
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| Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 11:10 am |
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27th Post |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS
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Kazimon wrote: i will not do a bronze strap at this time. to expensive to do that for small quantity. I appreciate your clarifications, Kazim 
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| Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 02:38 pm |
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28th Post |
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lukaslikes 3T WIS
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Kazimon wrote:
Hey Kenzo, From my rudimentary research the alloy you are using, RG7 DIN EN 1982, is know by C93200 or SAE 660 in North America. It is a standard bearing bronze, and contains nominally 7% Tin, 6-7% Lead, and 3-4% Zinc, remainder Copper. From http://www.concast.nl/elcas/index.php?page=brons/brons&lg=eng: "[RG7 is the] Most common used bronze alloy, also called bearing bronze. Suitable for bearings with middle duty load, good sliding and dry running properties and good machinability. Main purposes: bearings, slide strips and valves. RG7 has a very good lubricant structure." From http://www.anchorbronze.com/c93200.htm: Mechanical Properties M07 - As Continuous Cast Hardness* Brinell Hardness (500 kg load) 65 Tensile Strength** KSI 35 min Yield Strength ** KSI (0.5% Ext. under load) 20 min Elongation** % in 2 inch 10 min **Test values are nominal approximations and depend on specimen size and orientation. Whereas the UNI5275 is known as C95500 or C95520 (heat treated version, TH04) in North America and contains no lead, being an Aluminum Nickel Bronze. From http://www.nbmmetals.com/downloads/NBM_C95520.pdf: Room Temp Tensile & Hardness Data TENSILE STRENGTH (KSI) MIN 125 YIELD STRENGTH (KSI) MIN 95 ELONGATION IN HD MIN 2% BRINELL (3000 KG) 262 That is heat treated. Not sure if the bronze can be in this condition prior to machining. I think it can be, but set-up would differ accordingly. The non-heat treated, as cast version, C95500, has these properties. From http://www.anchorbronze.com/c95500.htm: Mechanical Properties (as cast) M07 - As Continuous Cast Hardness* Brinell Hardness (3000 kg load) 190 Tensile Strength** KSI 95 min Yield Strength ** KSI (0.5% Ext. under load) 42 min Elongation** % in 2 inch 10 **Test values are nominal approximations and depend on specimen size and orientation. The composition of C95500, C95520 is nominally 11% Aluminum, 4-5% Iron, 5% Nickel, Max 3.5% Manganese, remainder Copper (with some additional minor constituents). Also from the pdf linked to above: Typical Uses Oil & Gas Rock Bit Bearings, Bushings, & Washers, BOP Parts, Wellhead Components Aerospace Landing Gear Bushings and Bearings Automotive Bearings, Off-Highway Truck Bushings, Forming Roll Bearings Marine Pump Parts, Bushings Industrial Cams, Shafting, Hydraulic Bushings for Earth Moving Equipment, Valve Balls, Cryogenics, Drill Guide Bushings Military Tank Track Bearings, Bushings, Aircraft Components" And from http://www.anchorbronze.com/c95500.htm: Applications Valve guides and seats in aircraft engines, corrosion resistant parts, bearings, bushings, gears, worm gears, pickling hooks and baskets, agitators. That website also lists the machinability of C93200 (=70) and C95500 (=50) compared to free cutting brass (=100), so the C93200 is easier to machine. You can draw your own conclusions about which alloy provides which benefits for this application. Not saying there is a wrong or right alloy here, or one is better than another, just showing the different compositions and properties. With the C95500 and C95520 you can see a big difference in mechanical properties between the as cast and heat treated versions of this alloy. What I haven't found is a good comparison of these two alloys in terms of salt water corrosion, but they both are listed as corrosion resistant alloys. Lukas
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| Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 03:38 pm |
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29th Post |
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putnam dan 3T WIS
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So what this really says is that Anonimo bronze is lighter and harder than Kazimon bronze which is in turn heavier and softer (soft being a relative term here). Kazimon bronze will bend whereas Anonomo would fracture under extream abuse. Anonimo has Aluminium in the mix and kazimon lead and more copper (don't worry these are only toxic if you eat them). Both are used in salt water pump assemblies so both should be considered sea water friendly. Perfect, this means in real terms that dents and surface scratches are more likely on the 1500 and wabi sabi will over time be more evident, it also means the material is more 'lubricant' an advantage in the bezel. The case itself will cushion major impacts to the mechanism (all be it very slightly) and more likely show scars as a result. Whereas the Anonimo will look pristine longer. Excellent, softer with more copper will develop more of a patina faster and it's this patina that is one of my desired characteristics in a bronze watch, the case is of sufficient size and thickness for any surface scars to only add to the appeal. Last edited on Thu May 27th, 2010 03:41 pm by putnam dan |
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| Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 04:34 pm |
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30th Post |
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Kazimon 3T WIS
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well i dont know which RG7 is in the USA and where some get the info from. the data you using are maybe for the USA but not in germany. UNI5275 contains also lead. you should do your resaerch and easly can find the result in italy  here is the link, maybe you can use google translate to find out the data for RG7 from the german company. http://www.bronze.ch/deutsch/prod/halb/looser_bronze_50.htm as i said none of the bronze are strong as steel, that was also not our goal for the case. also i am realy getting tired discussing why i use what or why i dont. i do it my way and not the way maybe other companys does or dont.
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| Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 05:09 pm |
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31st Post |
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Hammerfjord Moderator 
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..don't worry these are only toxic if you eat them.. Putnam, you don't need to ingest materials for them to have a toxic effect on the organism. The skin and it's pores are an open door on external components if you are in tight and repetitive contact with them. The pores absorb toxines when beeing in long contact with toxic materials. That's how people got skin rashes from components like nickel or chrome placed on cheap jewelry or bracelets... As an extreme exemple... That's also how we had people on oil platforms dying of leukemia and other cancers after having them skin repetedly in contact with hydrolic and turbine synthetic oils... The oil leaked in the gloves, clothes and contaminated them. To finish with that: In the old time, we was using lead pipes for drinking water and even lead for the first tinned foods, resulting after long time of exposure, to contaminations or poisoning called "Saturnism"... Offcourse this is not the case with this bronze containing maximum 7% of lead and who is not ingested: My exemple is just an extreme one to show how simple repetitive contact with some special elements can be dangerous. Consider also the fact that it's brass, not bronze, who is commonly used on plumbing valves, and should contain under 4% of lead when in contact with drinking water, from what I've been reading. Exemple: The state of California took it down this year to maximum 0.25% of lead for the brass parts in plumbing for drinking water, based on security reasons. From what I understood, the only purpose of the lead presence in the bronze or brass, is to make it more easy to be machined as it get tender and don't rip or crack so easily under the cuting, machining... Again,as I said, ingestion makes you much more exposed than simple long skin contact: No doubt there. However, my question is: Is there any special reason related to any health normes for that the most used bronze alloy in watch manufacture, is the one who don't contain lead? Or is that only based on the fact that this alloy is harder and more resistant to sratches,dings...?
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| Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 05:34 pm |
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32nd Post |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Kazimon wrote:well i dont know which RG7 is in the USA and where some get the info from. LB50 described on this German site contains min. 5% , max.8% of lead. The UNI5275 contains 0.1%. The RG7 contain 6 to 7% Last edited on Thu May 27th, 2010 05:35 pm by Hammerfjord |
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| Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 05:45 pm |
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33rd Post |
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lukaslikes 3T WIS
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Kenzo, I never meant to question your material choice, I merely wanted to show the differences, and that it is not always just a question of marketing. Dan spoke to the potential differences between the alloys in actual use, and they both have their benefits and potential drawbacks. It is interesting to see all the different types of materials possible to be used for watches and what the difference are. For example, Rolex fans can go on and on about the benefits of the particular stainless steel, 904L, Rolex uses for their cases versus the typical 316L most others use. Yup, to be clear, what the manufacturers and suppliers call lead free (I called it 'no lead' in my post above) does not mean 99.999% Lead free. Lead is considered a contaminant for the most part in alloys with less than 1% Lead, and due to the raw materials, including scrap copper alloys, used to make the alloys, it can be much more expensive to achieve lower lead levels. Also, the benefits of Lead, easier machining, improved fluidity during casting, corrosion resistance, need to be rejigged with a new alloy system that does not contain a significant quantity of Lead. Copper.org has this to say regarding Lead in copper alloys for potable water sources: "The 1986 Safe Drinking Water Act (SDWA) amendments included Section 1417. This section addressed concerns for lead contamination in drinking water systems. As of June 19, 1986, all pipes, solders, pipe fittings or plumbing fixtures used in the installation or repair of any public water system or any plumbing in a residential or nonresidential facility which provided water for human consumption had to be "lead-free." The term "lead-free" was defined to mean that solder and flux could not contain more than 0.2 percent lead; pipes and fittings not more than 8.0 percent; and plumbing fittings and fixtures must comply with voluntary standards required under the SDWA." RG7, C93600, is consider a low lead alloy and would meet the above requirement if it were used in potable water systems. B-Metal, Red Brass, C836, is often used for water works castings (around 4 to 6% Lead). Recently California changed their rules about Lead in potable water systems: "What are the maximum allowable lead limits in plumbing products? Before January 1, 2010, the maximum allowable lead content in “lead free” pipes, pipe or plumbing fittings, fixtures, solder, or flux is as follows: 0.2 percent lead in solder and flux; 8 percent lead in pipes and pipe fittings; 4 percent lead by dry weight in plumbing fittings and fixtures. After January 1, 2010, the maximum allowable lead content in “lead-free” pipes, pipe or plumbing fittings, fixtures, solder, or flux intended to convey or dispense water for human consumption through drinking or cooking is as follows: 0.2 percent lead in solder and flux; 0.25 percent lead in wetted surfaces of pipes, pipe fittings, plumbing fittings and fixtures, as determined by a weighted average." Given that the Bronze cases will hardly be in contact with the skin (as the case back and buckle will be in stainless steel) the actual amount of Lead in the Bronze case is of little concern to the end consumer, unless someone decides to eat it. Keep on with the Bronze watches, they are looking great so far! Lukas
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| Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 05:51 pm |
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34th Post |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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I totally agree with you Lukaslike. Good corroboration of what I was speaking about
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| Posted: Thu May 27th, 2010 08:54 pm |
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35th Post |
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putnam dan 3T WIS
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It's only tetraethyl lead that is absorbed through the skin aka in gasoline, and unless you plan to literally ingest your watch you'll be fine. Regarding lead in drinking water, again you have to drink it! Lead poisoning is not found through skin contact unless in solution (which doesn't include a watchcase in contact with skin) Kazim, you carry on, some of us agree your right. I still think your a visionary :) Last edited on Thu May 27th, 2010 09:07 pm by putnam dan |
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| Posted: Fri May 28th, 2010 04:56 am |
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36th Post |
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Kazimon 3T WIS
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well so UNI5275 contains Aluminium, right? 11%, right? RG7 has none to max 0.01 than maybe we should be aware of this which is commonly known, check the internet: The uptake of aluminum can take place through food, through breathing and by skin contact. Long lasting uptakes of significant concentrations of aluminum can lead to serious health effects, such as: - Damage to the central nervous system - Dementia - Loss of memory - Listlessness - Severe trembling so we can discuss this up to the end of the world and maybe also start a medical study.... or we just work to finish the watch. Last edited on Fri May 28th, 2010 05:09 am by Kazimon |
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