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TimeTechTalk.com > 3T Official Brand Forums > Dievas Uhren Technik > The question is "What is a "Limited Run exactly?" Well, here is some food for thought |
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TimeTechTalk.com > 3T Official Brand Forums > Dievas Uhren Technik > The question is "What is a "Limited Run exactly?" Well, here is some food for thought |
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| The question is "What is a "Limited Run exactly?" Well, here is some food for thought | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13th, 2009 10:57 am |
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1st Post |
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KDSpiv 3T WIS 
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I see this question or forms of this question pop up on this and other forums pretty often. But I am taking the time to post my thought and opinion on the subject on this forum. Not all will agree with me (and it is our right to disagree with others) but I have tried to only give an educated opinion here. This isn’t particular to Dievas and their watches but to the world of small watch manufactures in general. A few months ago, I was lucky enough to have a conversation regarding exclusivity in watches with a fellow that was very much at the forefront of watch design and manufacture. I will refer to him as “The Reverend” out of respect to him and other watch companies. This is a bit of my outlook on the subject after speaking with him. In my experiences with watch companies, a run of 100 to 300 is a tiny amount of watches to manufacture. Especially if the company has multiple watch models being designed, implemented, and manufactured at any one time. For example: Various estimate numbers put Rolex's production between 520,000 watches a year to upwards of 800,000. That is a huge amount considering how "exclusive" Rolex's are. I have definitely run across small watch manufactures who say "Only 50 of these made". Many times this is true as there parts supply that makes up this watch may be in short supply. Other times, this is a marketing ploy to some extent. There will be 50 of this watch in polished cases, 50 of the same watch in bead blasted, 50 with a different colored second hand, etc. The Reverend said this is often a ploy used by watch manufactures to sell watches. Changing a small item in order to rebadge that watch as a different and "limited" model. The limited number and price these limited watches command can and do make special editions lucrative. The Reverend – “ People want to feel special, so we make them feel even more special by giving them a “special edition” with an already limited run. In other words, people who buy our watches are already in a pretty exclusive club. But there are a few that want distinction even within that group. These are people who already value the craftsmanship of our watche. They will value one that has had that extra touch or extra bit of time and love invested in its crafting even more. These special watches have to be limited in number due to time and cost so we make this extra loved watch a limited run and make both types of buyer happy with a single product” Ok this makes sense because in the realm of watches, just owning a Dievas, Korsbek, means having a limited watch by sheer virtue of so few being manufactured. Not to mention the time it takes for these watches to be completed. So a few of these existing watches have extra care, time and capital invested by DLC coating, special dials, modified movements, etc. THESE are limited runs within the small watch manufacturing world. BUT!!!!! There is a trap we as watch buyers need to not fall into regarding limited runs. Sometimes a watch manufacture will make a limited run using a special case or movement because there were a few of these made and will never be made again. Cool, right? Yes…unless all of the stock was used to make the watches with out regard to keeping a few for parts. This is especially true for highly modified or restored vintage movements that are touted by some Companies. You get a super rare, hard to repair watch that does a great impression of a potato after breaking since it is just going to sit there and do nothing. The Reverend - "When we first started out we used ETA's because they were bullet proof and cost effective. But more over, if something happened and our company shuffled off this mortal coil, our customers could take their watch to any Watchsmith and have it fixed long after our company is gone. We just designed our cases to be bank vaults and we knew the movements would do their jobs" Companies such as Dievas offer an extreme value in watch dollars by offering quality materials and quality automatic movements at a very nice price. I do wonder how many of any particular watch has to be manufactured to turn a profit though. There is more to it of course but this post is already WAY tooo long. Thanks. Thoughts? ***edited because I type like crap without spellcheck!*** Last edited on Tue Oct 13th, 2009 07:42 pm by KDSpiv |
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13th, 2009 11:22 am |
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2nd Post |
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Michael 808 3T WIS 
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Good point, I for one am quite guilty of falling into the "I gotta have it, it's a limited watch" thing. It seems everything out there is "limited" these days. I can see a day when someone will be promoting a "non-limited" run of watches with great success...
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13th, 2009 11:36 am |
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3rd Post |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS 
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KD, you raised many good points. But just my thoughts, I never really cared much for limited editions or exclusive editions. As long as I like the target, I'll shoot it down. If it happens to be limited, I'd see that as a bonus. My only problem with limited editions is that there may be something OUTSIDE the case that may be difficult to replace (and you raised your valid point here). Therefore what I usually do is I negotiate with that small company to sell me an extra of that item that I think will be hard to find many years down the road. So far, I have narrowed this down to sapphire crystals with a particularly steep rise or bulge AND maybe 26mm pins and screw bars. Otherwise, almost all else inside the watch is generic, i.e. an ETA, Valjoux, Lemania etc. Depending on the price point, I usually buy 2 of the same watch so that if something goes wrong 15 years or so later, I will have a full 100% inventory to dig into. Weird? Yes. Prudent? Yes, too. Then again, I go back to my first point: I only buy watches I love or watches that I know I will love looking at maybe dozens of times a day just to enjoy it's face. Limited? Mass market? Makes little diff to me really.:)
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13th, 2009 01:31 pm |
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4th Post |
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KDSpiv 3T WIS
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I agree in that the "limited" badge affixed to a watch means NOTHING to me in the watch buying equation unless I am taking it into consideration for (God forbid) resale value. To be frank, it’s just I usually I like the way Special edition watches look. But I guess I forgot to mention probably the most important aspect of a limited numbered or special edition watch. Does this increase the watches apparent value to YOU! That is the question at the end of it all. For example: I was sent the “Tactical” version of a watch to review and comment upon. This was a highly sought after limited edition of this particular model and carried an additional $2500 price tag on an already $4000 watch. I opened said watch and compared it with the standard model inside and out. In conclusion, the addition of PVD coating was the only difference between standard and limited model, period. No dial differences, hand differences, nothing. I stated in my review that “although I love the watch….. The larger price tag vs features added does not make it a worthy value in my eyes. If this was a $1000 watch with a $500 or up-charge then yes. But it is difficult to justify a 50% increase for a little PVD, at this price-point” I was LAMBASTED by owners of this watch! One fellow emailed me “at $6000 and only X number of them in exsistance, I think that makes it a kick ass value!!!!”. And there you have it! It made it a great value to HIM!!!! I was looking at it from a pure dollar ratio to work done value”
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13th, 2009 02:24 pm |
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5th Post |
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oagaspar Site Founder 
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"For example: I was sent the “Tactical” version of a watch to review and comment upon. This was a highly sought after limited edition of this particular model and carried an additional $2500 price tag on an already $4000 watch. I opened said watch and compared it with the standard model inside and out. In conclusion, the addition of PVD coating was the only difference between standard and limited model, period. No dial differences, hand differences, nothing." what watch would this be as curious minds would like to know?and honestly again out of only curiosity who are you as your username does not ring a bell but you sound well versed in forums and knowing what your username may be on another forum or forums would be useful in lending credibility to the WIS on 3T in getting to know you? and as far as LE or Limited quantities that is solely dependant on the manufacturer or watchmaker on whether or not they deserve any exclusivity or speculation of increased value down the road because of it.Many who participate on these watch forums are brainwashed by shopping shows and and false statements made by individuals/vendors and WIS posting and trying to make something more valuable by adding the monaker of LE or rare/scarce.... and it is up to a WIS to research their purchases in these cases and learn from those who preceeded us as for most in this hobby it is the joy of buying and owning what they like and is in their $ comfort zone and not neccessarily what is a truly substantial watch....it's more about having a fun hobby. The watch business is a very secretive business and there are those who believe they have figured it all out until someone comes along with greater knowledge to disprove them and unfortunately many WIS who posess this knowledge rarely post anymore as most forums have become nothing more than a schill for vendors to sell their products(on open forum) and forum owners to make $ for advertising so when a truth/fact is posted about a certain brand you will more likely be attacked by that brands loyal followers rather than heralded for the knowledge you posess and wanted to pass along. in conclusion I mean we're not really talking Philip Dufour or Richard Mille to name a couple here whose LE's are really LE's and pretty much guarranteed to increase in value hand6.gif
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13th, 2009 03:35 pm |
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6th Post |
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KDSpiv 3T WIS
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Very well put Oagaspar. The sponsorship of forums (although needed) has given basis for a tad bit of conflicting interests here and there. A fair review seems to be out of the norm these days and replaced by the singing of praises in an advertisment. Vendors do themselves a disservice and often set the customer up for dissapointment if they don't allow the few bad points of a watch be expressed with the many good. But, if you buy a watch that YOU are happy and buy it for YOU, it will be a value to you. One can easily tell when people buy a watch as a status symbol. They immediately take every word of the vendor as gospel and attack anyone who dares besmirch their watches name, warranted or not. Loyalty is the best trait to have, but not at the expense of the facts. A good vendor or manufacturer will create loyalty with a good product and good service. It is that simple. Time alone will tell if loyalty to Dievas or Gnomon is warranted by me for example So far as myself. I have no problems with PM’ing my name and contact info to you if asked. I always enjoy a phone call or lunch to talk about watches. But I will be happy with my anonymity for a while as far as forums go. I hope by not speaking out of my rear-end and only voicing my opinion when I feel I am educated enough to do so, I will build credibility on this forum as time goes on. Or at least until the kool-aid drinkers take over here too.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13th, 2009 04:04 pm |
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7th Post |
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Skipdawg 3T WIS 
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Interesting thread. ;)
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13th, 2009 05:49 pm |
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8th Post |
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Nabco 3T WIS 
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Skipdawg wrote: Interesting thread. ;) +1 Skip....very interesting
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13th, 2009 05:54 pm |
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9th Post |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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hey KD....we serve the occasional single malt but for the most part you will find we are mature grown WIS here who stopped drinking the Kool-Aid some time ago! :D:D:D ...and once you recieve your Vortex I am sure you will see a fine example of the brand and a good stepping stone in the direction towards loyalty....most of us here have known Anders for a long time on the forums ,even before he started Gnomon and Dievas....he is a WIS 1st and a good guy imho as are all of the vendor/friends we have on 3T! hand6.gif Attachment: beverage-Kool-Aid.jpg (Downloaded 83 times)
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13th, 2009 10:02 pm |
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10th Post |
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joecb 3T WIS 
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Very interesting thread.......some very good points...... I think the term "limited" is a very subjective term in the watch industry anyway... For example, as you state, a small watch manufacturer makes a limited build of only one hundred of a specific design.. and most likely works on a smaller profit margin, he does not pay for alot of advertising selling mainly on the web, which will have the largest market he can reach , and cost him little. And as you state KD, Rolex may make over 10,000 of a certain design and label it as a limited edition, and make annually over 500,00 watches, and pay for a large amount of advertising and that cost is passed on to the consumer, and must sell this larger quantity of a "limited edition" to make his profit. I' am not saying the cost associated with a Rolex is not warranted, but to me they are not as limited, say as the Dievas Vortx will be, and alot of the cost of a Rolex is advertising and name recognition and in my personal taste, I do not care for Rolex designs, they are done not only in tremendous amounts by Rolex, but copied by a huge segment of the watch industry It also comes down to popularity of a brand, and brand recognition. As for Dievas, in this country, they are relatively an unknown company, so for them to produce thousands of a model and call them limited, they would most likely end up with watches, they can't sell. Another example is the Lighton watches, that a WIS member bought and displayed on this forum....in my opinion a really beautiful, extremely well made exclusive design, with the original retail price tags in the thousands price range... all limited editions, and probably worth it as far as the retail industry pricing goes. Problem is ...no one ever really heard of them, they probably did not sell well, and the company stopped producing, and the watches are now selling for around a third of their retail price, and in my opinion a steal of a deal... And if they last, next year I will buy one, just a little out of cash right now with all my latest buys. Anyway... now my head hurts from having to think too much 
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