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oagaspar
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seems everyone is using the SAS most original design...A.Cairelli is next in line with this Italian Forum fora watch!

Caro iscritto oagaspar,

Come sempre miglioriamo i nostri servizi, abbiamo inserito nuove rubriche molto interessanti:

La prima è VISTI SU EBAY: uno speciale spazio dedicato alle aste che potrebbero interessarci ma abbiamo bisogno dell'aiuto di altri forumisti per poter cogliere l'occasione o lasciare perdere.
La trovi qui: [url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=97]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=97[/url]

Abbiamo inserito: OROLOGI RUBATI, seriali e altre notizie utili.
La trovi qui: [url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=98]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=98[/url]
Un database che aiuterà la ricerca e fornira' un valido controllo on line.

La nuova rubrica dedicata ai GRUPPI di ACQUISTO, dove i forumisti possono accettare le offerte di fornitori disposti a fare sconti su qualche orologio comprato in certe quantità.
Merita dargli un'occhiata, in questo momento è attiva questa offerta: il Forum Watch A. Cairelli - Roma 2011 uno strepitoso orologio sub 1000 metri ad un prezzo strabiliante per gli iscritti: 268,00 euro con valvola ad elio, fino a che ce ne sono di disponibili, un'offerta per immergersi questa estate:
[url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51988]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51988[/url]

Orologiando vi augura una splendida navigazione!

Grazie per averci scelto.

Orologiando Internet Staff
www.orologiando.org
info@orologiando.org

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Tony Duronio
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laughing.gif

bigrustypig
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Hmmmmmmsubtlelaugh.gifsubtlelaugh.gifsubtlelaugh.gif

Hammerfjord
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Seems like it's dangerous to order cases to a Chinese manufacture and not buying them... Revenge is sweet in Hong-Kongtoon1.gif

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anodie.gif   snoopy1.gif

EdRonax
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Oh dear, same case & bezel, who else is using these?

Skipdawg
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EdRonax wrote: Oh dear, same case & bezel, who else is using these?

http://www.timetechtalk.com/forum72/

mario
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hahha actualy I like this one the best LOL

bigrustypig
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Thanks for this, John. I don't know how I missed this thread but I've had no problems fitting Zulus into my CX-1. Fit is fine. And to Oscar's point...yes, some force is needed to insert the Zulu but patience and care will win.ThumbsUp02.gif

oagaspar
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what's interesting is this case Carelli is using is the new SAS bada$$ original design made by a 2nd HK case manufacturer and not the 1st which SAS rejected  ...or so I was just told.dog smile.gif
Where are all the Watch Monkeys now?
no.gif

Hammerfjord
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oagaspar wrote:
what's interesting is this case Carelli is using is the new SAS bada$$ original design made by a 2nd HK case manufacturer and not the 1st which SAS rejected  ...or so I was just told.dog smile.gif
Where are all the Watch Monkeys now?
no.gif


There's most likely industrial quarters in Hong Kong where dozens of watch-case manufactures are so close to each other that they certainly share toilets, showers, cafeterias, sleeping quarters...
How a leak wouldn't happen????
Oh! And forgot to mention: There's NO patent and NO design who isn't public property in HKsubtlelaugh.gif
Joke on the side...

Seriously,when having a good design produced in HK: I guess that as soon you turn your back to the manufacturer, break a contract, abandon a half project, you're doomed to be copied to death...
We call this: The Chinese revenge.

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Another Crux homage.crap.gifcrap.gifsubtlelaugh.gif

Hammerfjord
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Johnny P wrote:
Another Crux homage.crap.gifcrap.gifsubtlelaugh.giflaughing.gif

bigrustypig
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Johnny P wrote:
Another Crux homage.crap.gifcrap.gifsubtlelaugh.gif

EXACTLYsubtlelaugh.gifsubtlelaugh.gifsubtlelaugh.gif

afc14284
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Hammerfjord wrote: Johnny P wrote:
Another Crux homage.crap.gifcrap.gifsubtlelaugh.giflaughing.gif

dog smile.gifdog smile.gifdog smile.gif.... OTOH.. I think SAS made everybody wait too long for it's watch.. If I've learned anything about WISdom is that the attention span isn't big.. You  quickly get distracted by the next big thing.. 

oagaspar
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Looks like Vixa is back with their version of the genuine 100%  original design... no.gif
http://www.relojesparatodos.com/vb/threads/13909-No-me-he-podido-resistir-CAIRELLI-VIXA-Abyss-1000m-para-orologiando














only CRUX stands alone with the only original case design...

Paxman
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FOUL!!

Skipdawg
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Like the work they did on that Vixa!

ThumbsUp02.gif

Hammerfjord
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Hong-Kong is having a good time!

Johnny P
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Hammerfjord wrote:
Hong-Kong is having a good time!




ThumbsUp02.gifWith the original designlsubtlelaugh.gif

oagaspar
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I don't care for the hash marks on the case side of the Vixa but the PVD bezel is cool and it's nice to see the VIXA brand again...btw the Cairelli and VIXA will be sold sometime in May if all goes well and the Cairelli with Miyota will be sold somewhere in the $400. range I have been told...
...CRUX will be releasing a full PVD version soon and it looks awesome!
ThumbsUp02.gif

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oagaspar wrote:
I don't care for the hash marks on the case side of the Vixa but the PVD bezel is cool and it's nice to see the VIXA brand again...btw the Cairelli and VIXA will be sold sometime in May if all goes well and the Cairelli with Miyota will be sold somewhere in the $400. range I have been told...
...CRUX will be releasing a full PVD version soon and it looks awesome!
ThumbsUp02.gif


Can't wait to see the PVD Crux on my wrist.subtlelaugh.gif

bigrustypig
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Hammerfjord wrote:
Hong-Kong is having a good time!


A picture speaks a thousand words, Willbamby.gif

bigrustypig
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oagaspar wrote:

...CRUX will be releasing a full PVD version soon and it looks awesome!ThumbsUp02.gif


Agree. I've been waiting for this for quite some time, too. I can almost imagine it.ThumbsUp02.gif

oagaspar
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looks like the little boys have left their circle jerk room,in search of an audience to stir the pot all over again...crusty.gif

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oagaspar wrote: looks like the little boys have left their circle jerk room,in search of an audience to stir the pot all over again...crusty.gif


KARMA!!!   dance.gif

bigrustypig
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KenC wrote:
oagaspar wrote: looks like the little boys have left their circle jerk room,in search of an audience to stir the pot all over again...crusty.gif


KARMA!!!   dance.gif


+1. What goes around, comes aroundno.gif

oagaspar
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I don't know if it's Karma but I do know a lot of misinformation is being spewed by those who are not involved and have no idea what they are saying,they are only beating this dead horse for the sake of the "audience" they so much need in order to validate their existence.
    Since when has it become wrong for several watch companies to share the same case design? WIS have seen this going on since the beginning and yet for no reason other than forum politics this design has garnered the wrath of the unknowing newb led by the few who proclaim their self expertise upon them.
    Did SAS know another company was about to release a similar watch?,Yes they must have known, thus the many posts by SAS just prior to the release of how they rejected 300 cases ( because of a 1mm distance between the lug holes and case).Which at a later date was fixed (CRUX)by merely using a thinner lug screw that was more the industry standard, rather than the thicker screw the watch came with, just because one vendor refused the final case does not mean it was a reject due to some terrible imperfection but only that it did not meet his specific design.
    Now for those in the dark about watch manufacturing there are 2 rules that are the same throughout  the watch manufacturing industry.
    1:a down payment must be made of at least 30% before a case prototype is produced,which btw could take months of back and forth e-mails between the vendor and manufacturer if not on location before a case proto is actually made,at which point when all is said and done the proto is manufactured and sent to the vendor for approval.
    2: once approved and manufactured, the case or entire watch is sent to the vendor for inspection.This is the time the vendor should catch any and all imperfections such as the 1mm distance that SAS did not care for to be changed and as many found out later the issue with the bracelet. Not until the vendor gives a 100% approval of the revised design does the manufacturer proceed with the finished product which requires final payment at that time.
    Now is it possible the manufacturer didn't make any changes per the vendor on the final product ?,sure it is possible but wouldn't you believe that if these changes were written or discussed between the vendor and the manufacturer of the needed changes to the case and bracelet that they wouldn't own up to it and correct the issue?...would you send back 300 cases that were not correct to your specific order?...I know I would,especially if I had made specific changes on how they were to be made, which to me would have been an acknowledgment from the manufacturer that they would be made,without that acknowledgment I would have never proceeded.Cross your T's and dot your I's and leave nothing to blind interpretation when dealing in matters of business.
    This reoccurring issue of who did what will continue to raise it's ugly head until someone posts the the 100% truth backed by facts.Until then this is nothing more than a case of he said she said.Will the truth hurt the vendors who are using this case? No, probably not since the defamatory accusations have already been made at the hands of the person claiming the design.So when and if the truth is posted who will suffer? ...usually the one who claims foul to begin with....imho SAS could have handled this in a more reputable way instead of slinging mud and sitting back watching the commotion they created... 




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I personnaly didn't follow much what was the latest reactions on other forums... I get so pissed-off when I read narrow comments saying that 3T is that, 3T is this278.gif

Those guys behave as beeing born before them fathers and having more hair on the chest than a grizzly bear.
They know offcourse where is the best place to post: The forum of the braves wearing tough watches with original designsubtlelaugh.gif
Forums based on intolerance are not attractive or maybe just for a small club of frustrated crap throwers.

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Hammerfjord wrote: I personnaly didn't follow much what was the latest reactions on other forums... I get so pissed-off when I read narrow comments saying that 3T is that, 3T is this278.gif

Those guys behave as beeing born before them fathers and having more hair on the chest than a grizzly bear.
They know offcourse where is the best place to post: The forum of the braves wearing tough watches with original designsubtlelaugh.gif
Forums based on intolerance are not attractive or maybe just for a small club of frustrated crap throwers.
you said it Will!...but then these are the same guys who amuse themselves by posting pics of wrist shots on their crotches and reflections of themselves in mens room mirrors!.....No Shit...when I was told that I thought... WTF??....what self respecting WIS would want to be associated with that?dog smile.gif

watchtecman
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hey guys,
              a brief post from me regarding the matter. Till now we have been quiet on the public domain. As some will know, we r practically new on the scene and totally clueless on whole social/online networking and PR antics. But it appears that everytime such a 'rogue' post arrears, we get a flood of email spams to our company's email, this is a hindrance to fluidity of business at the company and i thought i should say a bit of something on behalf of crux.

point form be much easier

-  company is 100% financed by a good mate of mine, a generous offer as a platform to help me turn my hobby watchmaking habit more serious. Intention was never to make fast quick bucks, but to generate revenue just so we have the opportunity to buy better/rare movements, precious metal cases, hand bands. something i love more than building watches is building as many different variety of watches as i can.

-  i do not deny the fact that Crux n SAS are using the same case. However i only knew of the similarities after i saw the SAS clock/java applet on another forum. by then ive already paid my monies for the contract to have the cases built. So i contacted the case factory and asked them if it was ok, as i then believe SAS and Crux are prob going to sell our watches around the same places. Factory said ok, no worries, so i left it as it

-  We initially released our the 1st Crux watch on another forum.  It is only after ive showed our watch to the public that SAS started to complained about the 'faulty cases'. Everything up to that date was only complimentary comments on how terrific the quality of the SAS/CRUX cases.

- SAS contaced us fuming that we should take all our watches down as it is designed by them. after a few exchanges of emails,. i told SAS that we r ready to take our watches down, if SAS went back to talk to the facotry and sort it out. If the factory agrees to buy back the cases they sold to us, we r ready to forgo the time n monies spents on the dials, dials movements and do a different watch. SAS did no comply, so we thought that was that.

- as a small startup, we do not have the funds to buy cases, movement of dials in 100s of quanity. We approached a few case dealers and was offered a few cases. SO we picked this one in paritcular, as it was a little different from the other square ( longio ), DSSD ( fullswing) cases on offer.

- not trying to defend our self here, but how is anyone able to establish the legal rights of every single piece of watch part on the global market today.  there r thousands of diff cases n parts to be configured into millions of diff watches.  I f we didnt pick this particular case and went with another, who is to say an individual wont  show himself again as the designer of the case?

- the factory owner told us that the case was designed by their in house designers with specific changes made for diff customers.

-  I do not know the intricates of happenings behind closed doors with the case factory and their clients. But if SAS is really the designer ( original ). what incentive does the case factory have to gain by doing this and ending their relationship? remember this is a new cases without proven sucess. as a business would't a company stay with the original client n mantain a healhty working r's so to sell more models together?


anyways, thats something to think about.

cheers
kenneth
crux

Skipdawg
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Great post Kenneth.

bravo.gif

oagaspar
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Well said Kenneth....it is a shame that those who tell the truth are generally judged the harshest.
...out of all this unnecessary turmoil you have remained a gentlemen.
ThumbsUp02.gif

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I understand there that it's very possible that the basic case design was allready created by a designer working for this factory and then customised by SAS.
So as SAS would not apparently own the original design and by this fact, couldn't own any custom either, they just had to leave it dead on trying any complain toward the factory...
That would explain everything...The Cairelli and the Vixa cases also...
All in all, SAS made a mess for Crux but where are they now with Cairelli/Vixa?
Or maybe they just found out that they didn't own the design at all?
Maybe so.
crusty.gif

joecb
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pretty interesting discussion. I am really not up on all this. I have seen the Crux designed watch on there site and also here, i am not familiar with SAS or their designs.

I don't know all the legal issues or laws governing patents, but I would wonder why SAS claiming the design is originally theirs and  valuable to the future business products, did not put a patent on it, so it would reamin exclusively theirs and would prohibit the factory from selling the case to any other watch builders.

Last edited on Mon Apr 11th, 2011 03:18 pm by joecb

watchdaddy1
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THIS IS WHAT I GOTTA SAY TO SaS ---- HTFU

 


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Careful William or you'll find yourself a target of the feces flingers!!

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let's give credit when credit is due...from what I hear SAS has excellent warranty service!bravo.gif
  ...how come these watches are in warranty repair?
really.gif

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oagaspar wrote:
let's give credit when credit is due...from what I hear SAS has excellent warranty service!bravo.gif
  ...how come these watches are in warranty repair?
really.gif


Watch is rated at 1000 meters just don't take a shower with it. really.gif

afc14284
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Great discussion guys.. IMHO I think that SAS did the worst thing possible.. give free publicity to the competition by talking smack about themcrap.gif.... I work in the #1 telco company in my country.. we own 67% marketshare and when a new rival company emerged all their ads and marketing ploys were aimed at what WE failed at not at what THEY were offering.. man how I hate that!!!mad.gif... My thought is.. if you're selling something AND you're confident in it then why the hell would you worry about the competition!!! Sell your own s#%t and be done with it!!!

In my case, and reading from another forum how they speak ill of Crux.. IF I wanted that case design.. Crux would be my definite purchase.. 

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Hehehe, yes , the other forum's bashing...Exactly as you say, it didn't pay. Now they are certainly very busy with Vixa...subtlelaugh.gif

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None of this matters...the CRUX is a beautiful watch (not to mention that they actually brought the design to market).  It has proven appeal and quality.  So if you like it - buy it...in this economy, I wish I had the excess funds to purchase one (perhaps I could take my boys out of private school!)

There are companies (and people) who cannot enjoy their own success without someone else failing (or trying to make them fail).  CRUX is successful in its own right with an excellent product of proven quality.  They have also proven that they have no need to denigrate their competition to enjoy their overwhelming success - they are businessmen, not whiners!

I again, salute their success and the quality of their product (and once again, regret that at this time, I cannot afford it...but the future holds hope!

Skipdawg
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KenC wrote: None of this matters...the CRUX is a beautiful watch (not to mention that they actually brought the design to market).  It has proven appeal and quality.  So if you like it - buy it...in this economy, I wish I had the excess funds to purchase one (perhaps I could take my boys out of private school!)

There are companies (and people) who cannot enjoy their own success without someone else failing (or trying to make them fail).  CRUX is successful in its own right with an excellent product of proven quality.  They have also proven that they have no need to denigrate their competition to enjoy their overwhelming success - they are businessmen, not whiners!

I again, salute their success and the quality of their product (and once again, regret that at this time, I cannot afford it...but the future holds hope!



Very well said my friend.

bravo.gif

movas
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This has happened to us before. We had commissioned a company to do our first watch under the pretext that producing the sample wouldn't cost us a thing. We sent them our designs and drawings, the samples came out and we were not happy, at the next watch show in HK, we see the samples in someone else's booth and catalogue.

As you guys know, we have been having issue after issue with our new dive watch. After the first samples we had the same thought of just abandoning our deposit and the cases and starting afresh with another case manufacturer. If we did this, we would probably already have the watches out. But for fear of them selling the cases, we had to stick with the cases and sub-contract replacement parts even before the watches were released.

Most case factories live on relatively thin margins. Although the MOQ is about 300pc for most, they are really banking on a repeat order and the bigger brands really don't order anything below a couple of thousand.

Also, the whole definition of who designed what is vague as most brands only send in sketches and have the case factories 'design' the technical drawings. If they can sell Rolex/ Pam replica cases... what makes you think they can't do the same to other small brands.

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I'm not surprised about what you say Movas: That was what I concluded at start. I totally understand your very first fear about leaving down the all stuff and starting fresh, risking a full copy program from them side.
It seems that the all thing about those Chinese manufactures is that one can't trust them when it comes to design rights or ideas. That's no mistery as they are the number one producent of copies around the world.
I've been reading about small companies complaining about the extremely tiring process they have to go through when they have cases made there, so I really start to wonder if it's worth the small price those factories propose?
Here's the list of constant complains:
Much bad communication, unprofessional and arrogant customer treatment, alterated specs, late delivery, assembling flaws, design leaks...
When you count all hours you spent struggling with them, your case certainly costed as much as a German one.
Personally if I would start a small brand, I would never have my cases made in Hong-Kong or around there.

bigrustypig
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Hammerfjord wrote:

When you count all hours you spent struggling with them, your case certainly costed as much as a German one.


+1. Totally agree and I chime in with William's point. Many times all that anxiety isn't worth it and best to always saddle up with the pros. There is a market of WIS out there willing to spend a little more if the cases are sourced from the pros. In the end, like many things in life, you always get what you pay for.

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bigrustypig wrote:
Hammerfjord wrote:

When you count all hours you spent struggling with them, your case certainly costed as much as a German one.


+1. Totally agree and I chime in with William's point. Many times all that anxiety isn't worth it and best to always saddle up with the pros. There is a market of WIS out there willing to spend a little more if the cases are sourced from the pros. In the end, like many things in life, you always get what you pay for.


Agree on that Jeff: Many are willing to put some extra buks for a product coming from reputable German companies such as Fricker or even smaller brands such as Kazimon or Tourby.ThumbsUp02.gif

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I also agree w/Jeff but watch knowledge is why we are here,and knowing which companies are following tradition as far as where they are produced is getting harder to figure out with each year imo.
...all of the contract Swiss and German case makers have a Hong Kong affilliate...and visa-versa...even Fricker,that do work equally as well,and placed side by side,it would be hard for any watch enthusiast to pick which was made in Germany or HK...not all Fricker cases are produced in Germany and that is straight from Fricker!
....I know several very well received micro-brands that use the same factory as Fricker does in HK,and the watches as well, even though the "Swiss" or "Made in Germany" label is not present..
...and then you have the HK factories that will put anything you want on the dial,especially "Swiss Made"...imo if a watch is contracted and made in a HK facility and then supposedly sent to Switzerland for assembly and final inspection,what makes it better than the HK assembled watch?...sorry but I reserve my Swiss and German watch bucks for brands that have proven they deserve the label,not just because it says it on the dial.no.gif

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oagaspar wrote:
I also agree w/Jeff but watch knowledge is why we are here,and knowing which companies are following tradition as far as where they are produced is getting harder to figure out with each year imo.
...all of the contract Swiss and German case makers have a Hong Kong affilliate...and visa-versa...even Fricker,that do work equally as well,and placed side by side,it would be hard for any watch enthusiast to pick which was made in Germany or HK...not all Fricker cases are produced in Germany and that is straight from Fricker!
....I know several very well received micro-brands that use the same factory as Fricker does in HK,and the watches as well, even though the "Swiss" or "Made in Germany" label is not present..
...and then you have the HK factories that will put anything you want on the dial,especially "Swiss Made"...imo if a watch is contracted and made in a HK facility and then supposedly sent to Switzerland for assembly and final inspection,what makes it better than the HK assembled watch?...sorry but I reserve my Swiss and German watch bucks for brands that have proven they deserve the label,not just because it says it on the dial.no.gif


Very true. In this day and age, a WIS has to be sharper on his/her toes and whenever in doubt, must consult before dinero changes hands. As they say, "fools rush in where seasoned WIS fear to tread..."dog smile.gif

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Seems like Hong-Kong factories got it to finally bottom rot everybody who's producing cases in large quantities. Didn't know about Fricker and I must say that I'm deceived. It's thrue that it's harder and harder by now to know where parts are sourced and all this grey market's expention is getting scary for the one who's after something genuine and do not want to break the bank.
It's really time to change rules about the "Swiss Made" label before Switzerland even has it's cheese produced in China....

joecb
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Hammerfjord wrote: Seems like Hong-Kong factories got it to finally bottom rot everybody who's producing cases in large quantities. Didn't know about Fricker and I must say that I'm deceived. It's thrue that it's harder and harder by now to know where parts are sourced and all this grey market's expention is getting scary for the one who's after something genuine and do not want to break the bank.
It's really time to change rules about the "Swiss Made" label before Switzerland even has it's cheese produced in China....

 

So Will, what are you saying....their gonna open a swiss cow dairy in China and send the milk back to  Switzerland to be processed into cheese?

OR..

As long as 51% of the cows are swiss and the cheese is sent back to Switzerland from China, and cased or packaged, there, then it's still considered swiss made cheese under the Swiss Dairy Federation?whichone.gifcrazy.gif

Skipdawg
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joecb wrote: Hammerfjord wrote: Seems like Hong-Kong factories got it to finally bottom rot everybody who's producing cases in large quantities. Didn't know about Fricker and I must say that I'm deceived. It's thrue that it's harder and harder by now to know where parts are sourced and all this grey market's expention is getting scary for the one who's after something genuine and do not want to break the bank.
It's really time to change rules about the "Swiss Made" label before Switzerland even has it's cheese produced in China....

 

So Will, what are you saying....their gonna open a swiss cow dairy in China and send the milk back to  Switzerland to be processed into cheese?

OR..

As long as 51% of the cows are swiss and the cheese is sent back to Switzerland from China, and cased or packaged, there, then it's still considered swiss made cheese under the Swiss Dairy Federation?whichone.gifcrazy.gif



With all that travel that will be some ripe cheese.

happy1.gif

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IMO, the country of manufacture really doesn't play much into the equation. There are fake goods coming out from eastern european countries, heck there was a report about fake Ferrero Rocher chocolates, made in france, there's fake armani clothes from Italy!.....

However, what really matters is the factory that is producing it. Whether it be Fricker, or another factory for that matter. For example, I will next use a factory that produces cases for Citizen and a few other more established brands..... yes, some that claim to be swiss made as well. The prices are double what we have paid, but from the samples we have received, the quality and precision is definitely higher.

I was just in a factory in HK assembling watches that were 'swiss made'. What they did was send the parts to switzerland to be put together and 'certified', then shipped back to HK to reassemble as the assembly there was bad and only more for show and certification. Is this the future we want as consumers? The level of deceit goes beyond what we think and alot of times it's just a marketing ploy. Look we have a 'swiss made' watch, they don't. You should pay more for it because of that.... ultimately as consumers, we should be the ones dictating demand not the other way around.

When you start out in this industry, especially without much experience like myself, you take the cheapest one that comes your way. Sometimes because of the low quantities we start producing we don't have much of a choice either.

Just saying that best X product is best made in X country doesn't solve any problems and don't lead to any improvements. It only leads to monopoly. What is needed more is education (both ways) and a willingness to change and learn.

What happened to SAS is unfortunate. Same can be said for CRUX. But it again goes to show the variety of brands and philosophy. Unfortunately, with sub-contract manufacturing, again regardless of country of manufacture, you are definitely open to these situations.

Last edited on Thu May 12th, 2011 08:18 pm by movas

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About this one Movas:I was just in a factory in HK assembling watches that were 'swiss made'. What they did was sent the parts to switzerland to be put together and 'certified', then shipped back to HK to reassemble as the assembly there was bad and only more for show and certification.
Bad assembly in Switzerland so sent to Hong-Kong for a better one??? In wich place did they ask to have them watches asembled in Switzerland? A carpenter office who took 10$ a watch?
Most of the time, the assembly is in fact not so good in Hong-Kong: That's a fact that I verified and that's why I'm not anymore into Asian-assembled micro-brands.
Ask Invicta what made them a bad reputation on the market: The famous assembly in Asia with hands and dials loosing outbravo.gif
So offcourse, if you want a cheap case, with cheap parts, cheaply mounted and certified "Swiss" that's maybe the way to go as you say: Hong-Kong.
The only point here, one more time, is: Is the watch coming back cheap to us???
If it does: We understand without beeing rocket-ingeneers that it's all Asian components. No big mistery there with the "Swiss-Made" laws running actualy.
Or is it coming to 1500-2500$ to us because it wears a "Swiss-Made" and a konwn brand label?
Like Walca Far East and them sweet blue fabric?

It's all coming down to the price amigo: That's where we feel robed or not...Swiss-Made or not sadely.

joecb
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I think what Movas stated about grades of components and use of factories for cases and who does final assembly goes to the heart of the matter.

It all comes down to specific company and how honest they are in their marketing.
I agree that there are very good far east companies that are producing cases and movements that can rival swiss components, and their are Asian manufacturers who have very good quality control, and do very good assembly, but they are pricing very close to swiss costs for the same work.
But when you have a company that practices deception in order to win prestige and charge higher "Swiss" prices" As Will stated "We feel Robbed".

Will's example of Invicta is the classic greed company. I believe in the begining they were practiceing real ethics and when marketing a particular watch as "Swiss Made" or labeled "Swiss" they really were swiss made and the quality showed through, even though I'm sure some parts were really asian built. But greed set in and we all know where Inivcta went...
I still own several Invictas that I will keep, which I feel are the last of their true swiss built watches, and they have been trouble free and still look great after six or seven years.
I think we as consumers are just looking for honesty from the manufacturer, and I've seen alot of micro brand owners who are totaly up front about where their watches are made and do put tremendous effort into overseeing the quality of their watches before selling them, this is integrity.

romeo-1
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oagaspar wrote: seems everyone is using the SAS most original design...A.Cairelli is next in line with this Italian Forum fora watch!

Caro iscritto oagaspar,

Come sempre miglioriamo i nostri servizi, abbiamo inserito nuove rubriche molto interessanti:

La prima è VISTI SU EBAY: uno speciale spazio dedicato alle aste che potrebbero interessarci ma abbiamo bisogno dell'aiuto di altri forumisti per poter cogliere l'occasione o lasciare perdere.
La trovi qui: [url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=97]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=97[/url]

Abbiamo inserito: OROLOGI RUBATI, seriali e altre notizie utili.
La trovi qui: [url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=98]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=98[/url]
Un database che aiuterà la ricerca e fornira' un valido controllo on line.

La nuova rubrica dedicata ai GRUPPI di ACQUISTO, dove i forumisti possono accettare le offerte di fornitori disposti a fare sconti su qualche orologio comprato in certe quantità.
Merita dargli un'occhiata, in questo momento è attiva questa offerta: il Forum Watch A. Cairelli - Roma 2011 uno strepitoso orologio sub 1000 metri ad un prezzo strabiliante per gli iscritti: 268,00 euro con valvola ad elio, fino a che ce ne sono di disponibili, un'offerta per immergersi questa estate:
[url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51988]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51988[/url]

Orologiando vi augura una splendida navigazione!

Grazie per averci scelto.

Orologiando Internet Staff
www.orologiando.org
info@orologiando.org

 
You are a sad and pathetic little man to take such joy in the outright theft of this design.  Thankfully those with even an iota of intelligence (something of which is obviously lacking here) know    the real story and would not favor such brands as Crux with even a sideways glance.   Please do me a favor and ban me for life from this pathetic and deluded forum...I want nothing to do with this anymore.   My only regret is that Benarus, a stand-up model of how a watch manufacturer should be, is a sponsor here and not on a more legitimate site...

Oh, and if anyone wants to slag me for this post, I can be found on WatchUseek...with the adults.

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romeo-1 wrote: oagaspar wrote: seems everyone is using the SAS most original design...A.Cairelli is next in line with this Italian Forum fora watch!

Caro iscritto oagaspar,

Come sempre miglioriamo i nostri servizi, abbiamo inserito nuove rubriche molto interessanti:

La prima è VISTI SU EBAY: uno speciale spazio dedicato alle aste che potrebbero interessarci ma abbiamo bisogno dell'aiuto di altri forumisti per poter cogliere l'occasione o lasciare perdere.
La trovi qui: [url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=97]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=97[/url]

Abbiamo inserito: OROLOGI RUBATI, seriali e altre notizie utili.
La trovi qui: [url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=98]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=98[/url]
Un database che aiuterà la ricerca e fornira' un valido controllo on line.

La nuova rubrica dedicata ai GRUPPI di ACQUISTO, dove i forumisti possono accettare le offerte di fornitori disposti a fare sconti su qualche orologio comprato in certe quantità.
Merita dargli un'occhiata, in questo momento è attiva questa offerta: il Forum Watch A. Cairelli - Roma 2011 uno strepitoso orologio sub 1000 metri ad un prezzo strabiliante per gli iscritti: 268,00 euro con valvola ad elio, fino a che ce ne sono di disponibili, un'offerta per immergersi questa estate:
[url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51988]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51988[/url]

Orologiando vi augura una splendida navigazione!

Grazie per averci scelto.

Orologiando Internet Staff
www.orologiando.org
info@orologiando.org

 
You are a sad and pathetic little man to take such joy in the outright theft of this design.  Thankfully those with even an iota of intelligence (something of which is obviously lacking here) know    the real story and would not favor such brands as Crux with even a sideways glance.   Please do me a favor and ban me for life from this pathetic and deluded forum...I want nothing to do with this anymore.   My only regret is that Benarus, a stand-up model of how a watch manufacturer should be, is a sponsor here and not on a more legitimate site...

Oh, and if anyone wants to slag me for this post, I can be found on WatchUseek...with the adults.
Hey Juliet...who said you were a member here?,we keep guys  like you around for laughs...Eh!..and you know the real story?...spit it out,or do you swallow the BS they spew on that adult forum?dog smile.gif...for such an adult, this thread managed to keep civil,without any name calling until you came along...that's what is called the WUS mentality....you obviously do not know the true story and are easily influenced by the un-knowing mix of self proclaimed expert googlenoobs you seem to look up to...and with all your misplaced anxiety and passion over this matter you don't even own a SAS!no.gif

Johnny P
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oagaspar wrote:
romeo-1 wrote: oagaspar wrote: seems everyone is using the SAS most original design...A.Cairelli is next in line with this Italian Forum fora watch!

Caro iscritto oagaspar,

Come sempre miglioriamo i nostri servizi, abbiamo inserito nuove rubriche molto interessanti:

La prima è VISTI SU EBAY: uno speciale spazio dedicato alle aste che potrebbero interessarci ma abbiamo bisogno dell'aiuto di altri forumisti per poter cogliere l'occasione o lasciare perdere.
La trovi qui: [url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=97]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=97[/url]

Abbiamo inserito: OROLOGI RUBATI, seriali e altre notizie utili.
La trovi qui: [url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=98]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=98[/url]
Un database che aiuterà la ricerca e fornira' un valido controllo on line.

La nuova rubrica dedicata ai GRUPPI di ACQUISTO, dove i forumisti possono accettare le offerte di fornitori disposti a fare sconti su qualche orologio comprato in certe quantità.
Merita dargli un'occhiata, in questo momento è attiva questa offerta: il Forum Watch A. Cairelli - Roma 2011 uno strepitoso orologio sub 1000 metri ad un prezzo strabiliante per gli iscritti: 268,00 euro con valvola ad elio, fino a che ce ne sono di disponibili, un'offerta per immergersi questa estate:
[url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51988]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51988[/url]

Orologiando vi augura una splendida navigazione!

Grazie per averci scelto.

Orologiando Internet Staff
www.orologiando.org
info@orologiando.org

 
You are a sad and pathetic little man to take such joy in the outright theft of this design.  Thankfully those with even an iota of intelligence (something of which is obviously lacking here) know    the real story and would not favor such brands as Crux with even a sideways glance.   Please do me a favor and ban me for life from this pathetic and deluded forum...I want nothing to do with this anymore.   My only regret is that Benarus, a stand-up model of how a watch manufacturer should be, is a sponsor here and not on a more legitimate site...

Oh, and if anyone wants to slag me for this post, I can be found on WatchUseek...with the adults.
Hey Juliet...who said you were a member here?,we keep ass clowns like you around for laughs...Eh!..and you know the real story?...spit it out,or do you swallow?dog smile.gif



I think he swallows WhatsUpStupid BS.subtlelaugh.gif

Hammerfjord
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romeo-1 wrote:
oagaspar wrote: seems everyone is using the SAS most original design...A.Cairelli is next in line with this Italian Forum fora watch!

Caro iscritto oagaspar,

Come sempre miglioriamo i nostri servizi, abbiamo inserito nuove rubriche molto interessanti:

La prima è VISTI SU EBAY: uno speciale spazio dedicato alle aste che potrebbero interessarci ma abbiamo bisogno dell'aiuto di altri forumisti per poter cogliere l'occasione o lasciare perdere.
La trovi qui: [url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=97]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=97[/url]

Abbiamo inserito: OROLOGI RUBATI, seriali e altre notizie utili.
La trovi qui: [url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=98]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=98[/url]
Un database che aiuterà la ricerca e fornira' un valido controllo on line.

La nuova rubrica dedicata ai GRUPPI di ACQUISTO, dove i forumisti possono accettare le offerte di fornitori disposti a fare sconti su qualche orologio comprato in certe quantità.
Merita dargli un'occhiata, in questo momento è attiva questa offerta: il Forum Watch A. Cairelli - Roma 2011 uno strepitoso orologio sub 1000 metri ad un prezzo strabiliante per gli iscritti: 268,00 euro con valvola ad elio, fino a che ce ne sono di disponibili, un'offerta per immergersi questa estate:
[url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51988]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51988[/url]

Orologiando vi augura una splendida navigazione!

Grazie per averci scelto.

Orologiando Internet Staff
www.orologiando.org
info@orologiando.org

 
You are a sad and pathetic little man to take such joy in the outright theft of this design.  Thankfully those with even an iota of intelligence (something of which is obviously lacking here) know    the real story and would not favor such brands as Crux with even a sideways glance.   Please do me a favor and ban me for life from this pathetic and deluded forum...I want nothing to do with this anymore.   My only regret is that Benarus, a stand-up model of how a watch manufacturer should be, is a sponsor here and not on a more legitimate site...

Oh, and if anyone wants to slag me for this post, I can be found on WatchUseek...with the adults.


Read before to write you small provocator: The so called SAS design was in fact a variant of a Chinese design allready available on a Hong-Kong manufacture's catalogue.
SAS just moded it.
You are so full of it: You even didn't know that.
And that's why SAS could never do anything about Vixa and the others!!! You are the pathetic ignorant!

Johnny P
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Hammerfjord wrote:
romeo-1 wrote:
oagaspar wrote: seems everyone is using the SAS most original design...A.Cairelli is next in line with this Italian Forum fora watch!

Caro iscritto oagaspar,

Come sempre miglioriamo i nostri servizi, abbiamo inserito nuove rubriche molto interessanti:

La prima è VISTI SU EBAY: uno speciale spazio dedicato alle aste che potrebbero interessarci ma abbiamo bisogno dell'aiuto di altri forumisti per poter cogliere l'occasione o lasciare perdere.
La trovi qui: [url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=97]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=97[/url]

Abbiamo inserito: OROLOGI RUBATI, seriali e altre notizie utili.
La trovi qui: [url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=98]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=98[/url]
Un database che aiuterà la ricerca e fornira' un valido controllo on line.

La nuova rubrica dedicata ai GRUPPI di ACQUISTO, dove i forumisti possono accettare le offerte di fornitori disposti a fare sconti su qualche orologio comprato in certe quantità.
Merita dargli un'occhiata, in questo momento è attiva questa offerta: il Forum Watch A. Cairelli - Roma 2011 uno strepitoso orologio sub 1000 metri ad un prezzo strabiliante per gli iscritti: 268,00 euro con valvola ad elio, fino a che ce ne sono di disponibili, un'offerta per immergersi questa estate:
[url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51988]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51988[/url]

Orologiando vi augura una splendida navigazione!

Grazie per averci scelto.

Orologiando Internet Staff
www.orologiando.org
info@orologiando.org

 
You are a sad and pathetic little man to take such joy in the outright theft of this design.  Thankfully those with even an iota of intelligence (something of which is obviously lacking here) know    the real story and would not favor such brands as Crux with even a sideways glance.   Please do me a favor and ban me for life from this pathetic and deluded forum...I want nothing to do with this anymore.   My only regret is that Benarus, a stand-up model of how a watch manufacturer should be, is a sponsor here and not on a more legitimate site...

Oh, and if anyone wants to slag me for this post, I can be found on WatchUseek...with the adults.


Read before to write you small provocator: The so called SAS design was in fact a variant of a Chinese design allready available on a Hong-Kong manufacture's catalogue.
SAS just moded it.
You are so full of it: You even didn't know that.
And that's why SAS could never do anything about Vixa and the others!!! You are the pathetic ignorant!


[

Hammerfjord
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thankyou.gifThanks Johnny. Diver down, diver down!!

Last edited on Tue May 17th, 2011 09:17 am by Hammerfjord

watcher
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I'm just catching up with this thread after several months. I had heard of this case controversy but not seen the details of it before.

I can't help but feel that this...
movas wrote:
Also, the whole definition of who designed what is vague as most brands only send in sketches and have the case factories 'design' the technical drawings.
...might have a lot to do with the controversy.

When the factory does all the technical drawings (which necessarily involves some of their own creative and technical input) then the idea of who 'designed' something really does become unclear. I've seen this myself many, many years ago in the personal protective equipment market. Some designs of goggle were so copied in south east Asia that they essentially became 'generic' designs.

Last edited on Sun Jul 17th, 2011 03:45 am by watcher

bigrustypig
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Just saw this thread again. That Romeo-1 guy is something else and made remarks totally uncalled for. Geesssh...and only over a watch discussion??? dog smile.gif

Hammerfjord
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On my side ,I first thought that a HK manufacture was reselling the SAS design to others after getting some cold shoulder from the SAS owner... After some reading and observation and info-fishing ,I understood fast that most of micro-brands are contacting those factories with sketch drawings and get proposed a final design cooked up by the factories's designers and them own catalogs...
Also many ready parts can be mixed to obtain a new cocktail watch...
That's why there is similarities when those micro-brands are working with the same factory.
You don't need to be a rocket engineering big head to understand it.
The SAS case was just a catalog moded pick as Vixa picked his too.
Just contact this factory and get yours with a special bezel and a different crown just for the pleasure to be accused of grand-design-theft by the WUS adult club and laugh to SAS who can't say a word because they know the thruth and never really owned any unique design....

watcher
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I should add for the sake of balance that since I wrote my earlier message in this thread I have read (on WUS) that Graeme of SAS said that he did not require the factory to do any technical drawings or design: He says he submitted full technical drawings initially and at each revision.

I'm not taking sides, just passing on new (to me) information.

Last edited on Sun Jul 17th, 2011 02:20 pm by watcher

Hammerfjord
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watcher wrote:
I should add for the sake of balance that since I wrote my earlier message in this thread I have read (on WUS) that Graeme of SAS said that he did not require the factory to do any technical drawings or design: He says he submitted full technical drawings initially and at each revision.

I'm not taking sides, just passing on new (to me) information.

Sure ,and that's why the WUSers allways defended Graeme...
But read page 3 of this thread where Kenneth from Crux telles that the factory allways claimed that it was them own design and that them guys had done the drawing themself.
So what now? Kenneth lies? So why the factory sells those cases to other brands such as Vixa and it's sister brand?
Do the factory lies? Telling that they own everything they don't and risking to scare away next costumers who would take them for design-thiefs?
Or is it like the "Kobold case" that Fricker sells to Laco for them 1000m watch and still do business with Kobold who seems to never had complained because Fricker seems to own the design somehow...?
Wierd no? I would say that when you do the maths, you understand why everybody can use this so called SAS design in total inpunity.

oagaspar
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this horse has been beat to death...fact is CRUX is near Sold Out of all 300 cases...the next offering will be the last remaining cases being done in a custom order PVD,as per customer request...once those are gone the new CRUX design will be revealed,completed and ready to sell,leaving SAS all the glory of the mysteriously designed case forever,and to sell his 1st 100 LE Longios(many of which have already been in warranty repair)...that 1000's of WIS on WUS said they would buy....you know,vote with your wallets and all that BS>
seems to me CRUX had greater success in the end.
ThumbsUp02.gif

Paxman
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SAS meh...

Skipdawg
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That said, enough said!

sspc
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romeo-1 wrote:
oagaspar wrote: seems everyone is using the SAS most original design...A.Cairelli is next in line with this Italian Forum fora watch!

Caro iscritto oagaspar,

Come sempre miglioriamo i nostri servizi, abbiamo inserito nuove rubriche molto interessanti:

La prima è VISTI SU EBAY: uno speciale spazio dedicato alle aste che potrebbero interessarci ma abbiamo bisogno dell'aiuto di altri forumisti per poter cogliere l'occasione o lasciare perdere.
La trovi qui: [url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=97]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=97[/url]

Abbiamo inserito: OROLOGI RUBATI, seriali e altre notizie utili.
La trovi qui: [url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=98]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=98[/url]
Un database che aiuterà la ricerca e fornira' un valido controllo on line.

La nuova rubrica dedicata ai GRUPPI di ACQUISTO, dove i forumisti possono accettare le offerte di fornitori disposti a fare sconti su qualche orologio comprato in certe quantità.
Merita dargli un'occhiata, in questo momento è attiva questa offerta: il Forum Watch A. Cairelli - Roma 2011 uno strepitoso orologio sub 1000 metri ad un prezzo strabiliante per gli iscritti: 268,00 euro con valvola ad elio, fino a che ce ne sono di disponibili, un'offerta per immergersi questa estate:
[url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51988]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51988[/url]

Orologiando vi augura una splendida navigazione!

Grazie per averci scelto.

Orologiando Internet Staff
www.orologiando.org
info@orologiando.org

 
You are a sad and pathetic little man to take such joy in the outright theft of this design.  Thankfully those with even an iota of intelligence (something of which is obviously lacking here) know    the real story and would not favor such brands as Crux with even a sideways glance.   Please do me a favor and ban me for life from this pathetic and deluded forum...I want nothing to do with this anymore.   My only regret is that Benarus, a stand-up model of how a watch manufacturer should be, is a sponsor here and not on a more legitimate site...

Oh, and if anyone wants to slag me for this post, I can be found on WatchUseek...with the adults.


Perfect Post Romeo.
 
I also regret Benarus is over here as one of the few reasons I have this forum membership (but don't post) is to have access to all forum Benarus pics. Some good info and good folks on this site but I find Oscar to be comical as his position on a watch company seems largely based on his personal involvement with a watch company.  I really can't take his opinions seriously.  He rips into Tempest  but Crux gets a pass. Pure comedy. 
 
Round of applause to Romeo for calling it like it is.  Oscar, Ban away! LOL.

bravo.gif

oagaspar
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sspc wrote: romeo-1 wrote:
oagaspar wrote: seems everyone is using the SAS most original design...A.Cairelli is next in line with this Italian Forum fora watch!

Caro iscritto oagaspar,

Come sempre miglioriamo i nostri servizi, abbiamo inserito nuove rubriche molto interessanti:

La prima è VISTI SU EBAY: uno speciale spazio dedicato alle aste che potrebbero interessarci ma abbiamo bisogno dell'aiuto di altri forumisti per poter cogliere l'occasione o lasciare perdere.
La trovi qui: [url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=97]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=97[/url]

Abbiamo inserito: OROLOGI RUBATI, seriali e altre notizie utili.
La trovi qui: [url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=98]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=98[/url]
Un database che aiuterà la ricerca e fornira' un valido controllo on line.

La nuova rubrica dedicata ai GRUPPI di ACQUISTO, dove i forumisti possono accettare le offerte di fornitori disposti a fare sconti su qualche orologio comprato in certe quantità.
Merita dargli un'occhiata, in questo momento è attiva questa offerta: il Forum Watch A. Cairelli - Roma 2011 uno strepitoso orologio sub 1000 metri ad un prezzo strabiliante per gli iscritti: 268,00 euro con valvola ad elio, fino a che ce ne sono di disponibili, un'offerta per immergersi questa estate:
[url=http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51988]http://www.orologiando.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51988[/url]

Orologiando vi augura una splendida navigazione!

Grazie per averci scelto.

Orologiando Internet Staff
www.orologiando.org
info@orologiando.org

 
You are a sad and pathetic little man to take such joy in the outright theft of this design.  Thankfully those with even an iota of intelligence (something of which is obviously lacking here) know    the real story and would not favor such brands as Crux with even a sideways glance.   Please do me a favor and ban me for life from this pathetic and deluded forum...I want nothing to do with this anymore.   My only regret is that Benarus, a stand-up model of how a watch manufacturer should be, is a sponsor here and not on a more legitimate site...

Oh, and if anyone wants to slag me for this post, I can be found on WatchUseek...with the adults.


Perfect Post Romeo.
 
I also regret Benarus is over here as one of the few reasons I have this forum membership (but don't post) is to have access to all forum Benarus pics. Some good info and good folks on this site but I find Oscar to be comical as his position on a watch company seems largely based on his personal involvement with a watch company.  I really can't take his opinions seriously.  He rips into Tempest  but Crux gets a pass. Pure comedy. 
 
Round of applause to Romeo for calling it like it is.  Oscar, Ban away! LOL.

bravo.gif
at least have the balls to post under your real username ky70,...you are just another coward,3T has a No Ban rule,if you want to make a monkey of yourself,than who are we to say different...how else could I base my position on a watch company without personal involvement?,if I were to really rip Tempest it would have ended RIP...and btw,they came to me 1st,last year,and I declined because of the info I gathered!...the comedy is however you,undoubtedly a founding member of the Club,and we Thank you for making us laugh!dog smile.gif

Attachment: dik wad.jpg (Downloaded 144 times)

sspc
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ROFL!! 

I'm an idiot for posting here again, you banned that profile 2 years ago (LOL).  Remember that?  "If you want to participate on my forum, you must not participate on Forum X".  I had no idea about any forum wars or never heard any mention of 3T and whatever disagreement you had going on.  So I certainly did not comply with your silly request so that I could be re-instated.  As I told you then, I don't do high school ultimatums.

Nice to talk to you again...it's been a while.  Like I said, I'm PURE COMEDY and not to be taken seriously.

in an effort to not fuel this troll with anymore back and forth banter,everyone can check the members list and see ky70 is still an active membership,when I banned anyone belonging to Yamahakis forum,you may have been banned,but since he was outed as a liar,and his own forum turned on him,I lifted all bans and placed a no ban rule in effect,Jan.2010.


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