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| Top COSC Producers | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20th, 2010 11:46 pm |
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1st Post |
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Jeep99dad 3T WIS 
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Article on top COSC producers. A quick read and a few numbers surprised me. 1- Rolex as usual with more than half the total 2- Omega 3- Breitling... Ball and Tissot in the top 10 Enjoy it and sorry if it's old news. Brice http://www.watchtime.com/2010/09/who-are-switzerlands-top-chronometer-producers/
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21st, 2010 03:04 am |
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2nd Post |
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Graham 3T WIS 
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Thanks, Brice - interesting read.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21st, 2010 06:22 am |
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3rd Post |
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Hammerfjord Moderator 
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Would be curious to know how many watches Rolex produces by year also.... Met a guy yesterday night who was complaining of his Breitling Crosswind and the crazy amount of minutes it was loosing by month: "It's only the case who's good quality with them" he told me with a grey face. His Planet-Ocean Co-axial was holding constantly one second late by day: I wasn't surprised. The thing I would like to know is : How many percent of them watch production those brands send to the COSC certification...? 
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21st, 2010 11:39 pm |
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4th Post |
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oagaspar Site Founder 
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this is an old post from TZ about COSC but still holds true today... http://www.timezone.com/library/wbore/wbore631733384647656250
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22nd, 2010 06:30 am |
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5th Post |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Very interesting document Oscar! I was hitting down on this passage: Watchbore estimates that at least 15,000 Rolex movements failed in 2001. According to Rolex, the rejects are fixed and sent back to COSC until they pass. "We don’t use COSC to tell us how good our movements are," said a source deep inside the Wilsdorf foundation. "We test them ourselves. All we want is the chronometer certification. It’s for marketing." If it's only for marketing, why at list 15000 mvts failed to COSC standards when sent there? I mean by that: They would have sent 15000 unprecise watches on the market if COSC would'nt have refuse them the chronometer standard...? Seems like that or I get it wrong? Then, they really need this controle and should not call it a marketing stuff only I guess. My little personnal analyse of those facts: I think that it's good and healthy that watches are inpected by an independant certification source who will have a serious outsider eye on the quality of the movements. After that, when you look at the numbers: COSC is living literally out of Rolex funds. Then, would COSC and it's people ever dare to say anything wrong about them blood supplier? Well, it seems like Rolex have a really good draw on the quality and percentages of failures anyway so we can sleep good. The only problem I have with Rolex is the price: Nothing else. I think that the production is the dilemma at the end: Not the ultra precision as many brands can pass the COSC and we will never know wich one is the best. The most precise machine tools are only viable in high-volume production, which explains why the mass-produced tracteurs are consistently chronometers. Then, there, is the choice: You may have a really good and accurate movement but it's mass-produced and millions of others have the same. On the other hand, you may have a unique piece of patient engineering with much soul but it may most likely not be as accurate as the "tractor"... Still, Patek P. sent 1286 pieces who passed COSC standards in 2001, so if you have a big wallet, there is hope  So what would you choose? For the eyes and the pleasure of uniqueness, I would choose the low-production piece, even it's not a COSC. For coming at time to appointments, I would take the tractor...
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22nd, 2010 07:17 am |
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6th Post |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS 
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Hammerfjord wrote: Very interesting document Oscar! Very good points, Will. I like best the part about the appointment and the tractor, too  . Make sure the dentist has a barn for a garage , amigoI guess the Japanese have little to say on this as they too can give the Swiss a really good fight and I mean movements on the higher end Prospex lines plus the Spring Drive and Grand Seiko. Nice reads and I enjoyed them both. Thanks O and Brice.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22nd, 2010 10:03 am |
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7th Post |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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I agree Will ....you need to remember that this was in 2001 and Rolex was still producing watches without the COSC cert/chronometer writing on the dial in the Submariner....I believe it was 2007 when Rolex went all COSC chronometers....so if they sent all their movements to COSC and 15,000 failed out 100's of thousands and they did what was neccessary to make them pass I would say that is a pretty good record...especially in a watch that wasn't a chronometer graded watch....everything is marketing in some way,shape or form imho... .... when a movement is sent for COSC grading it is only the movement that is sent in ....so anything can happen from COSC testing to final installation of that movement into a watch that could cause it to not run within specs....Rolex and some of the other true manufacture' brands that are located in and near COSC have a better chance of these movements keeping true time than some company that is relying on another manufacture that may be in another country to build their watches and keeping a COSC spec movement running true. .....I cringe when I hear statements of "Swiss Made" when the manufacture is in HK or India....as I stated once before only 200 watches need be sent to Switzerland in any run to qualify for "Swiss Made" after those pass the Federation guidelines the rest can be assembled anywhere( many never going to Switzerland at all because these HK manucfatures will put anything you want on a dial)....so what does that do to a COSC movement?.... ....if you insist on a COSC graded watch than stick to the real watch manufacturing brands....you are going to pay more but you can rest easy that you are getting what you paid for imo....personally I have watches running well within COSC specs without the cert. ...this is another great source of info on quality...when a watch comes with this cert you can be assured it is something special because the entire watch is tested...not just the movement! http://www.fleurier-quality.com/
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22nd, 2010 10:12 am |
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8th Post |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS
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oagaspar wrote: I agree Will ....you need to remember that this was in 2001 and Rolex was still producing watches without the COSC cert/chronometer writing on the dial in the Submariner....I believe it was 2007 when Rolex went all COSC chronometers....so if they sent all their movements to COSC and 15,000 failed out 100's of thousands and they did what was neccessary to make them pass I would say that is a pretty good record...especially in a watch that wasn't a chronometer graded watch....everything is marketing in some way,shape or form imho... I like your analysis, Oscar. I, too have watches without the COSC-cert and they are up to COSC standard. In the past I had a Zeno Commemorative chrono with a Dubois-Depraz. It wasn't COSC but it's accuracy was eerie and astounding. I still regret selling that and at that time, didn't quite appreciate the movement maker. Drat!
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22nd, 2010 11:58 am |
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9th Post |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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I only bring this up about COSC specs and watches that are not COSC and still running within specs....many watches are still equipped with chronometer grade top eta's and movements that have not gone through the testing phase...which brings up a story I have that involves a watchmaker/manufature' here on 3T and a discussion he had with a new watch company that was insisting on COSC and the cost of going that route opposed to just using a top/chronometer grade movement that could be adjusted to run within the COSC specs by his watchmaker. ....my question is that if given the choice of a watch with the COSC cert at a much higher price or having the same watch with a chronometer grade eta running within the specs at a much lower cost to you which would you choose?
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22nd, 2010 12:26 pm |
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10th Post |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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oagaspar wrote:I only bring this up about COSC specs and watches that are not COSC and still running within specs....many watches are still equipped with chronometer grade top eta's and movements that have not gone through the testing phase...which brings up a story I have that involves a watchmaker/manufature' here on 3T and a discussion he had with a new watch company that was insisting on COSC and the cost of going that route opposed to just using a top/chronometer grade movement that could be adjusted to run within the COSC specs by his watchmaker. Very good informations and interesting question I must say.... This question is the root of ,not only the chronometer grade inscription, but also what is writen on the dial in general... I explain: As in some previous posts I written, my meaning was resumed by "I want the quality at reasonnable price, even it's written ASSO on the dial" Well, I exagerate but you certainly understand my point. Written "Certified Chronometer" or not on the dial, it's only you or few who will have the occasion to look very close to your watch, who will see it. The important is the precision you know about and can rely on: Not the graffiti... As Jeff told, there is watches with no marking who are very precise and within COSC standards. Offcourse even knowing that, many buyers will still pay more for the little graffity. Another little graffity can even cost thousand $ like some Rolex with a special dial or hands who skyrocket in prices: Are any dial/hands worth 25000 buks? Well, for my part, having a mvt 2500C Omega turning at way-over-COSC standard like nearly 0 second error by day, included inside a Kazimon 1500 case, is the pure exemple. It costed me less than any Planet Ocean and I have a unique high quality piece 100% German made instead of a mass-production Omega watch. Offcourse, nobody in the street recognise this watch and nobody knows it's precision: Only me and some friends. But each time I look at it, it's like Xmass 
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22nd, 2010 03:12 pm |
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11th Post |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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very well said Will!...and very much a definition of what a WIS should strive to be...someone who not only has a passion for what they wear on their wrists but also the knowledge involved in what they wear!
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22nd, 2010 04:02 pm |
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12th Post |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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oagaspar wrote:very well said Will!...and very much a definition of what a WIS should strive to be...someone who not only has a passion for what they wear on their wrists but also the knowledge involved in what they wear! Thanks O! Yes, knowledge allways saves money
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