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TimeTechTalk.com > Time Tech Talk > Time Talk > Would you be upset if you opened your Panerai and found this? |
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TimeTechTalk.com > Time Tech Talk > Time Talk > Would you be upset if you opened your Panerai and found this? |
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oagaspar Site Founder 
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The Paneristi seem to be with the recent discovery of base Unitas movements in their high end Pam 318's...but on the side of fairness,Panerai did advertise this SE model as having a untouched by Panerai movement inside! http://www.network54.com/Forum/353391/message/1319322410/318+pictures+update.++Sorry+can%27t+respond+to+emails Attachment: 318 panerau rr.jpg (Downloaded 210 times) |
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Hammerfjord Moderator 
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Yes, I've seen an old model selling with a usual 6497...For a sh¨t scary price and posted it there: http://www.timetechtalk.com/forum10/23385.html Strangely, nobody reacted... The pics you show Oscar, are presenting the lowest grade of 6497 one can find on the market...Shame. blah.gif This model or grade is called for "basic" (it's a blasted surface) and those in the Panys are "new old stocks" apparently. After is coming the "hammered" surface then the "côtes de Genève", then the "perlage" and then the "circular grain" or "circular côtes de Geneve" at last in finish quality, if I don't mistake or forget one...Then the "skeletonised". Last edited on Mon Oct 24th, 2011 01:09 pm by Hammerfjord |
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Jeep99dad 3T WIS 
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I'd not be pissed because I wouldn't have bought it and spent that much $ on it in the first place though I still think it's ridiculous. Steinharts hand-crankers looks better for 400$ |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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This is the movement of my cheap home-made homage: 6497 Gold plated, perlage finish and blue screws: I outclassed Panerai!   |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Hammerfjord wrote: Yes, I've seen an old model selling with a usual 6497...For a sh¨t scary price and posted it there: http://www.timetechtalk.com/forum10/23385.htmlthe movement in the pic of your link is a 6497-2 that beats at 21,600,and is a chronometer grade(note larger balance wheel with spokes)...which was the slightly modified movement used in many Panerais,among a list of other known movements...the one in the pic above(Pam318) looks like base 6497,and although it's hard to tell if the balance wheel is smaller,it does not have the spoked version which would denote a Top or Chronometer grade movement...which if it is a base Unitas 6497-1 would only beat at 18,800...that would p me off! |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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oagaspar wrote:Hammerfjord wrote:Yes, I've seen an old model selling with a usual 6497...For a sh¨t scary price and posted it there: http://www.timetechtalk.com/forum10/23385.htmlthe movement in the pic of your link is a 6497-2 that beats at 21,600,and is a chronometer grade(note larger balance wheel with spokes)...which was the slightly modified movement used in many Panerais,among a list of other known movements...the one in the pic above(Pam318) looks like base 6497,and although it's hard to tell if the balance wheel is smaller,it does not have the spoked version which would denote a Top or Chronometer grade movement...which if it is a base Unitas 6497-1 would only beat at 18,800...that would p me off! Yes, I could see the flair-spokes on the balance...Even that, I think it's hideous to sell it for 15000$... What I was meaning is that the bridges are even not modified or worked out other than usual Côtes de Genève... I already find the basic Pany with fully modified 6497 a bit too expensive for a non-in-house movement and there's also rumors that it's the Asian workshop of Soprod who decorate the whole bridges there... All in all, the only Pany who would tempt me would be the ones with the new in-house movements: If I would decide to buy a Pany... |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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this is the movement in my Precista Italiano/PRS-20LE(hand finished Soprod)...at $1500. in 2006,some may have thought a bit high for a homage,but it was well worth the wait and dollars spent imo...note screwed balance and blued swan neck regulator...something more in line as to what should be expected in a Panerai imho. Attachment: 004.JPG (Downloaded 188 times) |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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oagaspar wrote:this is the movement in my Precista Italiano/PRS-20LE(hand finished Soprod)...at $1500. in 2006,some may have thought a bit high for a homage,but it was well worth the wait and dollars spent imo...note screwed balance and blued swan neck regulator...something more in line as to what should be expected in a Panerai imho. I agree Oscar, this is the minimum grade a Panerai should house before any bridge modification on a 6497....But apparently they think that a case and a dial/hands made by them are enough to set the price high and since the movement is not showing, why not put a 100$ movement and sell it for few thousands  |
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rob.winter 3T WIS 
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I think it's unforgivable for Panerai to sell unmodified movements in any of their watches, at least at the prices they are asking. |
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elemental 3T WIS
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that is a really really really expensive case :/ |
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stew77 Admin 
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You guys nailed it...and I would agree 100%! ...to develop a SPECIAL EDITION, market the movement as a non-COSC certified, but "special" movement, the Panerai OP XXIX Calibre... hmmm...almost sounds legendary. If I paid for this Special Edition, and then found this out, I would be mad.gifto say the least. At the price point they are asking, this is both sick and wrong. Hopefully, people find the case work well worth the price of entry!  ...maybe they can charge more for going 'old school' on the movement.Last edited on Mon Oct 24th, 2011 09:56 pm by stew77 |
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ericf 3T WIS 
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When i bought my panerai i specifically only wanted one with the in house movement to mentally help me justify the price of admission. I would not cough up that kind of money for a stock movement. |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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funny that any WIS...Paneristi or not are actually justifying this ....had this been a micro brand,WIS would be calling for their heads,and running them out of town! ...it's not unusual for high end Swiss brands to dump cheap movements in watches and charge huge $$$,or out source production to China and still call it Swiss Made,but when they get caught WIS need to call them out and hold them accountable. ...one Paneristi made a great comment about the PAM318 SE that made me laugh!:"Instead of the Brooklyn Bridge, the Manhattan Bridge would have been more befitting. It's closer to Chinatown..."...I really hope Panerai responds in a manner befitting the brand...funny thing about this hobby is,that this model may end up being a huge collectible because of what ended up inside!...  |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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oagaspar wrote:funny that any WIS...Paneristi or not are actually justifying this ....had this been a micro brand,WIS would be calling for their heads,and running them out of town! You are so right: Some WIS are so "on them knees" worshiping some brands that they could nearly wear a dried seagull crap mounted on a bracelet just because it's branded  Those basic movements Panerai used are completely out of class compare to them profile and if they wasn't as arrogant as they seem to be, they would never have authorize a such miserable movement housing. What a blow on them reputation I would say! Paper-flat excuses should be on the way if they own a bit of pride... |
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mellons 3T WIS
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apparently this is a rep- the owner posted the thread just to cause a bit of turbulence over on 'risti.... |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Well, I can see from the paneristi forum´s comments made about the watches that there is many "paneristi posers" who don't know much about movements and the big difference between modified & in-house or even modified/ameliorated/decorated/adjusted and raw movements... Posting that it don't matter because the movement isn't showing and decoration isn't needed since it's the same movement anyway? LOL So it's all about decoration now? Or is it also about modifications who gives an ETA better performance over time...? Anybody who would have open those raw movements and look at them through high magnification, would have known that they sometimes even hide steel dust/splinters, unpolished steel thorns peaking out parts and corrosion spots: Specially when NOS, like those seems to be. I can tell that it's no joy to look inside them compare to a well finished version, believe me...Precision plays much inside this. Those guys buy Panerai for the look and the brand: They don't have much concern about the mechanic...Some even thought that the engraved case-back made it back in value for the movement's grade as this Pam model was kind of low priced? WTF??? LMAO For sure, this model was reserved to them and maybe a well deserved swindle if they bought it.  |
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stew77 Admin
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Hammerfjord wrote: Well, I can see from the paneristi forum´s comments made about the watches that there is many "paneristi posers" who don't know much about movements and the big difference between modified & in-house or even modified/ameliorated/decorated/adjusted and raw movements... Agree 100% William!  and others have stated as well...in considering the Panerai brand, if and when I ever go for a PAM, I will be sure it is an in-house movement (I personally can't justify the price point otherwise - but everyone has their own opinion). Great point too about movement quality, components, and finish...great movement decoration alone does not necessarily make for a great movement !!! |
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Jeep99dad 3T WIS
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Does Panerai disclose the mvt in its specs? If so, and I was buying the watch for X 1000's, knowingly, then why would I be pisses off or disappointed? I got what was advertised and IMO made a bad decision OR didn't care to look and just bought it for the brand name in which case I'd probably wouldn't know the difference or care :) I'm an idiot :) Now if I was led to believe or told that I was buying a highly mofldified super super mvt or in house mvt, and I got this instead... Yeah I'd be pisses. That aside I most definitely agree it's pitiful for Panerai to do this! Extremely disappointed to have seen this eventhough I would buy one myself. |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Thanks Chris. Well, I would even prefer a decorated movement even it would not be showing: They have a finer finish with cleaner parts...Generally the finish goes with the quality grade and also tuning to say it like that: Finer movements are generally timed also as they present a higher effort from the maker even they are hided... That's anyway my general experience. Also as is saying Oscar as well as another guy on this forum's discussion, Panerai used to put 21000 bph movements who are rather more precise than the usual 18000 bph eta/unitas 6497... Brice: This model seem to be announced as a "non cosc", I don't think Panerai advertise it as housing a basic grade movement but who knows... If you look closely, you can even see 4 bad rips/scratches on one of the movements showing up front: Doesn't look like the guy made it himself when opening the watch, that would be very wierd and it's generally sign of bad storage over the time, as NOS movements... Last edited on Wed Oct 26th, 2011 01:24 am by Hammerfjord |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS 
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Geeessshhhh!!! There should be a public stoning ceremony for this. I guess many WIS also just blindly follow some brands and all of a brand's miscues and quickly brush aside certain missteps in the interest of protecting their vested interests. |
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OldeCrow 3T WIS 
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It's just plain disappointing to see Panerai can't even counterfeit their own watches as well as the Chinese can... |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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OldeCrow wrote: It's just plain disappointing to see Panerai can't even counterfeit their own watches as well as the Chinese can...LMAO!....at least now it will be easier to spot the fake 318...it will be the one with the decorated Asian 6497-2 high beat! |
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mellons 3T WIS
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LOL |
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Johnny P Advisor 
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I love my Black Diamond even more now! To bad it doesn't have the Singapore Bridge ingraved on the back I probably could get $20,000 for it   |
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Jeep99dad 3T WIS
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OldeCrow wrote:It's just plain disappointing to see Panerai can't even counterfeit their own watches as well as the Chinese can...  |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Panerai was known for using many,many different movements that were available during their pre-Vendome years as you can see below,but never did they use a base movement such as in the 318! Movements from 1936/8 Officine Panerai-Richemont Group. Historic-Contemporary-Specialities-Limited and Special Editions Collections. Unitas 6497/Top Eta, Swatch Group, hand-wound with hours and minutes, no Cosc certificate 16 1/2 lignes, 17 jevels, 21,600 a/h, power reserve 41 (I) - 56 (I-X) hours (OP I from 1997 to 2001 and OP X from 2002 on) - OP II - XI Radiomir 45mm (Black Seal) + Luminor 44-47mm (Marina, Marina Destro-Left Handed, Marina + OOR Serial + OP Logo Serial + S. E. 20th Ferretti 1986-2006 + S. E. Boutiques 2009 and 2010 + Destro-Left Handed, Marina Militare + A. Vespucci, Marina Tantalium, 1950 and M. Militare Destro-Left Handed) + Luminor Marina, Sub, Submersible-Slytech, Daylight-Slytech and Black Seal-Slytech (Replica 1993-1997 Ed.) Unitas 6497/2 Eta, Swatch Group, hand-wound with hours, minutes and small seconds 16 1/2 lignes, 17 jewels, 21,600 a/h, power reserve 41 (II) - 56 (II-XI) hours (OP II from 1997 to 2001 and OP XI from 2002 on) The new finishing of the h. w. movements OP X-OP XI, utilized from the 2005-H historic collection on  - OP III Radiomir aut. 45mm (Black Seal) + Luminor aut. 40-44mm (Marina, Marina-Montecarlo 2000, Marina-Regatta 2001, Marina-W. C. S. 2003, Marina-Olympic Games 2004 and 2006, Marina-Boutique Firenze 2005, Submersible (300-1000-2500m and 1950 1000m) + Regatta 2004, Amagnetic-Arktos, Sealand for Purdey and Black Seal) Valjoux 7750P1 Eta, Swatch Group, automatic with hours, minutes, small seconds and date 13 1/4 lignes, 21 jewels, 28,800 a/h, power reserve 42 hours - OP IV Luminor Chrono aut. 40mm (Chrono and Chrono Amg, Pam 108) El Primero 40.0 Zenith, Lvmh Group, automatic with hours, minutes, small seconds, date and three counters 13 1/4 lignes, 31 jewels, 36,000 a/h, power reserve 50 hours - OP V Luminor Chrono aut. 40mm (Chrono 2000 and Chrono Amg, Pam 105) F. Piguet 111-2, Swatch Group, automatic with hours, minutes, small seconds, date and three counters 11 1/2 lignes, 37 jewels, 21,600 a/h, power reserve 45 hours - OP VI Luminor Chrono aut. 40mm (Chrono Flyback) El Primero 40.0 Zenith, Lvmh Group, automatic with hours, minutes, small seconds, flyback and three counters 13 1/4 lignes, 31 jewels, 36,000 a/h, power reserve 50 hours - OP VII Radiomir aut. 40-42mm Elite 680 Zenith, Lvmh Group, automatic with hours, minutes, small seconds and date 11 1/2 lignes, 26 jewels, 28,800 a/h, power reserve 55 hours - OP VIII Luminor aut. 40-44mm (Gmt, from 2001 on, Regatta Gmt 2002, Arktos Gmt, North Pole Gmt and Boutique Firenze 2005 Gmt) Valjoux 7750P1 Eta, Swatch Group, automatic with hours, minutes, small seconds, date and gmt 13 1/4 lignes, 21 jewels, 28,800 a/h, gmt, power reserve 42 hours - OP IX Luminor aut. 40-44mm (Power Reserve + Regatta 2005 and Power Reserve Destro-Left Handed, from 2001 on) Valjoux 7750P1 Eta, Swatch Group, automatic with hours, minutes, small seconds, date and power reserve 13 1/4 lignes, 21 jewels, 28,800 a/h, power reserve 42 hours - OP XII Luminor Chrono aut. 40-44-47mm (Regatta Chrono 2003 40mm, Chrono 44mm + Chrono Daylight edition + Chrono Boutique Firenze 2005, Chrono Submersible 1000m 47mm + Chrono Slytech edition) Valjoux 7753 Eta, Swatch Group, automatic with hours, minutes, little seconds, (date) and three counters 13 1/4 lignes, 27 jewels, 28,800 a/h, power reserve 46 hours - OP XIII Radiomir Gmt 42-45mm JLC 897, Richemont Group, automatic with hours, minutes, small seconds, date and gmt 11 ½ lignes, 35 jewels, 28,800 a/h, gmt, power reserve 37 hours - OP XIV Radiomir 8 Days (+ Sincere) 45mm JLC 1877, Richemont Group, hand-wound with hours, minutes, small seconds and power reserve, no Cosc certificate 13 ¼ lignes, 33 jewels, 28,800 a/h, power reserve 8 days - OP XV Luminor 1950 Submersible Pangae Depth Gauge 47mm automatic with hours, minutes, small seconds and depth gauge 13 ¼ lignes, 21 jewels, 28,800 a/h, power reserve 42 hours - OP XVI Luminor Chrono 40mm and Luminor Chrono Tantalium 40mm hand-wound with hours, minutes, small seconds and two counters 12 lignes, 18 jewels, 21,600 a/h, power reserve 48 hours, no Cosc certificate - OP XVIII Luminor 1950 Chrono Rattrapante (+ Regatta Chrono 2007/9) 44mm and Radiomir Chrono Rattrapante 45mm automatic with hours, minutes, small seconds, -rattrapante- function and two counters 13 ¼ lignes, 31 jewels, 28,800 a/h, power reserve 42 hours - OP XIX Luminor 1950 Chrono Flyback (+ Regatta Chrono 2006) 44mm automatic with hours, minutes, small seconds, -flyback- function and two counters 13 ¼ lignes, 30 jewels, 28,800 a/h, power reserve 42 hours - OP XXV (Radiomir) Mare Nostrum Chrono 52mm (Manufacture Minerva), ? components and 12 3/4 lignes Hand-wound with 55 hours of power reserve Hours, minutes, small seconds and chrono with two counters 18,000 a/h, 22 jewels, 1 barrel, no Cosc certificate
automatic with hours, minutes, small seconds with two counters 13 ¼ lignes, 24 jewels, 28,800 a/h, power reserve 46 hours - OP XXVII Radiomir Titanium 47mm (Manufacture Minerva 16-17) hand-wound with hours, minutes and small seconds 16 3/4 lignes, 18 jewels, 18,000 a/h, power reserve 55 hours, no Cosc certificate
The new 8 Manifattura Movements, (no Cosc) made by the Manufacture Panerai in Neuchatel-CH 
Calibre P.2003 (Luminor 1950 GMT 10 days 44mm and Radiomir GMT 10 days 45/47mm) 281 parts 13 3/4 lignes Automatic movement with 10 days of power reserve 3 barrels Second reset and GMT functions Linear power reserve indicator 28,800 a/h and 25 jewels
Calibre P.2004/P.2006* (Luminor 1950 GMT Chrono Monopusher 8 days 44mm and Rattrapante 8 days 47mm) 333/356* parts 13 ¾ lignes Hand-wound movement with 8 days of power reserve 3 barrels Second reset and (only cal. P.2004) GMT functions Linear power reserve indicator Single button column wheel chronograph/rattrapante function*
Calibre P.2005 (Luminor 1950 GMT Tourbillon/Time Eq. 6 days 47/50mm and Radiomir GMT Tourbillon 6 days 48mm) 243 parts 16 ¾ lignes Hand-wound movement with 6 days of power reserve 3 barrels GMT function Tourbillon escapement Power-reserve indicator on the back of the movement
Calibre P.9000 (P.9000-P.9001 and P.9002) (Luminor 1950 44/47mm 3 days Marina/Subm./GMT/P. Reserve Aut. + Regatta 2011) 195 (P.9000)-227 (P.9001) and 236 (P.9002) components 13 ¾ lignes Automatic movement with 3 days of power reserve GMT/Power Reserve functions 28,800 a/h, 28 jewels and 2 barrels
Calibre P.999 (Radiomir 42mm) 154 components and 12 lignes Hand-wound movement with 60 hours of power reserve Hours, minutes and small seconds functions 21,600 a/h, 19 jewels and 1 barrel
Calibre P.3000 (P.3000-P.3001-P.3002 and P.3003) Hand-wound cal. with 3 days of power reserve, 21 jewels, 2 barrels and 160 components, with hours, minutes and small seconds. Utilized both for the Luminor 1950 3 days 47mm and both for the Radiomir 3 days 47mm
The Other Movements - F. Piguet 1153, Swatch Group, automatic with hours and minutes, no Cosc certificate 12 lignes, 29 jewels, 21,600 a/h, power reserve 100 hours Radiomir Jewelery aut. 40mm - OP XXIV/G. Perregaux 59 (A. Schild 5008), then OP XXIV, Sowind Group, automatic with hours, minutes, seconds, date, alarm and gmt, no Cosc certificate 13 1/4 lignes, 31 jewels, 28,800 a/h, power reserve 47 hours Radiomir Alarm Gmt 40-42mm - Chezard 7400, with hours, minutes and seconds, no Cosc certificate 11 1/2 lignes, 21 jewels, 18,000 a/h, power reserve 40 hours Radiomir Independent - OP XXI/Jaquet 8952 (Valjoux 7750P1 Eta), automatic with hours, minutes, three counters and chrono with function -foudrayante-, no Cosc certificate 13 1/4 lignes, 40 jewels, 28,800 a/h, power reserve 40 hours Radiomir Chrono Foudrayante 1/8th sec. 45mm + Regatta Chrono 2010 47mm - Omega 920 (Lemania), Swatch Group, with hours, minutes, date and one counter, no Cosc certificate 10 lignes, 17 jewels, 21,600 a/h, power reserve 40 hours Radiomir Seconds Counter - G. Perregaux 9907, Sowind Group, with hours, minutes and tourbillon, no Cosc certificate 12 1/2 lignes, 20 jewels, 21,600 a/h, power reserve 75 hours Radiomir Tourbillon - Lemania Cht 15, Swatch Group, with hours, minutes, small seconds and two counters, no Cosc certificate 15 lignes, 21 jewels, 18,000 a/h, power reserve 40 hours Radiomir Zerograph - F. Piguet 6850, Swatch Group, automatic with hours, minutes, seconds and date 11 1/2 lignes, 29 jewels, 28,800 a/h, power reserve 72 hours Radiomir Platinum - Venus 179-185, with hours, minutes, small seconds and two (179) or three (185) counters 14 lignes, 26 (179) or 20 (185) jewels, 18,000 a/h, power reserve 49 (179) or 36 (185) hours Radiomir Chrono Split-Seconds 40-42mm - Valjoux 234 Eta, Swatch Group, with hours, minutes, seconds, date and two counters, no Cosc Certificate 13 1/4 lignes, 18 jewels, 21,600 a/h, power reserve 50 hours Radiomir Chrono 44mm - Eta 2893-2, Swatch Group, automatic with hours, minutes, seconds, date and gmt Luminor aut. 44mm Gmt (from 1998 to 2000 + re-ed. 2010) - Eta 2892-A2 (Soprod 9040), Swatch Group, automatic with hours, minutes, seconds, date and power reserve Luminor aut. 44mm Power Reserve (from 1998 to 2000 + re-ed. 2009) *************** - Rolex 618 (basis Cortebert), hand-wound with hours and minutes, no Cosc certificate 16 lignes, 15/17 jewels, 18,000 a/h, power reserve 41 hours Ref. 2533-3646-6152-6152/1-6154 and 1000m aluminium prototype (Vintage 1936/8-1992 Ed.) + Radiomir (Pam 21) (S. E. 1997) 47mm   - Angelus 240, hand-wound with hours, minutes and small seconds, no Cosc certificate 16 lignes, 17 jewels, 18,000 a/h, power reserve 8 days Ref. 3646-6152-6152/1 and Radiomir ref. gpf 2/56 (Vintage 1936/8-1992 Ed.) + Luminor 1950 8 days 47mm (S. E. 2005) and M. Militare 8 days 47mm (S. E. 2008)  - Angelus 215, hand-wound with hours, minutes, seconds and two counters, no Cosc certificate 14 lignes (Radiomir) Mare Nostrum 1943  - Eta 2801-2 + chrono mod. D. Depraz 3127, hand-wound with hours, minutes, seconds and two counters, no Cosc certificate 11 1/2 lignes, 43 jewels, 28,800 a/h, power reserve 41 hours Mare Nostrum + Mare Nostrum-Slytech (Replica Ed. 1993-1996 and 1997) |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Thanks for those cool pictures and specs Oscar! I really love the new in-house Panerai movements for them specifications and esthetic... Truly some beauties there. It's in fact hard to believe that them watch-makers from Neuchâtel would mount those 6497-1 "nos" after working with such in-house beauties... Orders of the stupid boss or maybe just mounted in the NY shop? really.gif |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS
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Hammerfjord wrote:Thanks for those cool pictures and specs Oscar! I really love the new in-house Panerai movements for them specifications and esthetic... +1. And that's a wealth of detail, Oscar. Thanks! |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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A very good post featuring great close pictures from this low grade ETA/Unitas 6497 housed in this controversial Pam 318. As I was saying in my earlier posts, the finish of those movements is on the frontier to create doubtful thoughts about the precision, when observed with magnifying lenses... http://www.network54.com/Forum/353391/thread/1320595343/The+mysterious+PAM318 |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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it get's better... http://www.network54.com/Forum/353391/message/1320595343/The+mysterious+PAM318 |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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oagaspar wrote:it get's better... That's the link I did post up over...I need some of this stuff you drink Oscar... |
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