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oagaspar Site Founder 
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There is a bronze watch recall in affect issued by Peter of Helson and Ralf/Steve of Benarus in regards to their bronze watches....it has been found out through private testing that the advertised CuSn8 bronze to be used in their watches came back as a different bronze alloy,so both Helson and Benarus have issued e-mails to their bronze customers to return the watches to be re-cased by the manufacturer in the correct bronze cases.Due to problems with the Benarus website the Benarus e-mails have been delayed,so please be patient and do not e-mail Steve,you will receive the instructions on how to proceed in the next week...these instructions are for every owner,whether you are the original or not....below is a copy of Peters e-mail,and once again the Benarus e-mails will be sent out shortly so please do NOT e-mail Steve or Ralf....imho this a very fresh and honest approach by these 2 fine watch companies.I would hope others would follow this example. Dear Helson Shark Diver Bronze customer, unfortunately we had to find out that the previous batches SD bronze watches ( serial number is lower than 690) are not made in the bronze material they are supposed to be. I apologize that we did not check the material but had confidence in the certificate given to us by the metal supplier. Meanwhile we have the correct CuSn8 and it is tested by a 3rd party laboratory. We would be happy to exchange your case to get you the real thing, CuSn8. Please send us your watch back and we will replace the case and bezel. Dial, movement, case back etc will stay the same. While doing this we can also offer you to exchange your bezel to a different one as on your actual watch or change the dial to one of the new dial colors ( as long as our dial stock lasts) this is free of charge. Of course we will also refund your shipping cost but would appreciate if you could use a just standard parcel but with tracking number . or instead of a shipping refund you can get the watch back including a Sharkfin rubber strap with the new bronze buckle, matching your new case. Up to you. Please send only the watch head (no strap no lug bars no warranty card or box) back to Smart Asia Industrial Ltd. Unit A, 7th Floor, CDW Building, 388 Castle Peak Road, Tsuen Wan, N.T., Hong Kong. Phone : +852 2480 4493 and remark "Helson watch and your serial and back for repair" with the shipping documents. Please also email me your serial number and name and if you just want it back like it is, but with the correct CuSn8 case, or if we shall change anything else. We will do our best to get you your watch back as soon as possible. In case that you sold your watch already it would be great you could forward this email to the new owner. I am sorry for any inconvenience we caused you and thank you in advance for your understanding. Best regards Peter |
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Hammerfjord Moderator 
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So what's the alloy who been used? Another point on the Chinese business there...Hmmm  |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Hammerfjord wrote: So what's the alloy who been used? Another point on the Chinese business there...Hmmmdoes it matter,it wasn't CuSn8 and that is all Helson and Benarus was interested in,since that was what they were told,and thus advertised.  ...the owners of the Magrette will have a different situtation as that watch came back tested as brass!  |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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oagaspar wrote:Hammerfjord wrote:So what's the alloy who been used? Another point on the Chinese business there...Hmmmdoes it matter,it wasn't CuSn8 and that is all Helson and Benarus was interested in,since that was what they were told,and thus advertised. Brass...  |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Hammerfjord wrote: oagaspar wrote:brass....that deserves a chicken dance Will...  |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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oagaspar wrote:Hammerfjord wrote:oagaspar wrote:brass....that deserves a chicken dance Will... OH YEAH!!! One or two! |
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Steve Laughlin 3T WIS 
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The material we received came with a certificate showing that what we bought was cusn8. I think we were given the other material because they must have wanted to get rid of the current inventory and not special order the cusn8. We now can see a color difference in the cusn8, it is more red/pinkish and this is the color we want. This recall is because we want our watches to be the Cusn8 and nothing else. What we have is a mix of copper, tin, and zinc. It does not match the mix of copper and tin that Cusn8 needs to be. We started our own investigation after we saw a few other companies coming out with bronze watches. Peter Helson and Benarus both got our material from the same supplier. Ralf has found the new CUSN8 from a supplier in Germany and we will also double test the material before we machine it. The CUSN8 that we just purchased was the same price as the material we were given before. The email from Benarus to the bronze customers has not gone out yet because we were not quite ready to execute the recall, we have just received the new material and after we finish our own testing we are going to machine 70 cases for the previously sold bronze Morays as well as 50 new ones for the new Bronze Moray that we will begin to produce soon. Our main reason for using the CUSN8 is the beautiful color and the ratio of copper and tin makes it a more sea water resistant bronze than the other formulas. Sorry we did not get it right the first time, we were lied to and we have come up with a plan to make it right. |
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Steve Laughlin 3T WIS
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I will have the Benarus customers send their watches directly to me and I will organize the shipment to the factory, so Benarus customers do not send your watches to the address Helson provided. I will provide you with my address in an email and I will organize the returns from here. |
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Steve Laughlin 3T WIS
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I will also send out the email tonight about our Bronze watches. I think I have resolved the virus attack on benarus.com, the warning signs will still be up on the Benarus site until Google completes a site review and then removes the warnings. Last edited on Sun Feb 5th, 2012 03:59 pm by Steve Laughlin |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Ty for the explanation Steve and kudos to You and Ralf for your excellence in customer service and making sure your customers get what they paid for. |
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stew77 Admin 
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Steve Laughlin wrote:I will have the Benarus customers send their watches directly to me and I will organize the shipment to the factory, so Benarus customers do not send your watches to the address Helson provided. I will provide you with my address in an email and I will organize the returns from here. Thanks for the excellent communication Steve. And huge thumbs up to both Benarus and Helson for stepping up and making it right for their end customers.  Steve, just curious...does this affect the original 1st series Bronze Moray that was done using the UNI5275 Bronze? Thanks. |
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Jeep99dad 3T WIS 
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Benarus rocks and their CS is top notch I also love how they have a presence in the US, Steve, it makes things much easier for customers IMHO. |
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Johnny P Advisor 
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Hammerfjord wrote:oagaspar wrote: Magrette Brass! Busted   |
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Steve Laughlin 3T WIS
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stew77 wrote:Steve Laughlin wrote: YES, we made 20 watches in the 1st batch, and 50 in the 2nd. All 70 will be replaced with CUSN8, if the customer chooses to send the watch in for the new case. |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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I've been contacted by a brand I will not name who sold me a gold plated watch a while ago: They found out that it was in fact brass plated and asked me to send it back to get it redone. Well worth the 1500$ I paid when you get such customer service! I say: One chicken-dance for the guy!   |
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Steve Laughlin 3T WIS
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at least it wasn't a rock |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Steve Laughlin wrote:at least it wasn't a rock He would not dare...Everybody knows how the "tiles guy" was worried to see Jason on his door for the friday 13th  |
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stew77 Admin
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Steve Laughlin wrote:stew77 wrote: Thank you Steve! Appreciate the communications and will just iterate again that it is always a pleasure doing business with companies that put integrity and their end customers first (even when suppliers that they are trusting to operate the same way choose otherwise). I will say that this news supports my thoughts regarding a few bronze cases that I have had experience with during "patina experiments", especially when using liver of sufur gel. Widely varying results given identical LOS temps and durations pointed to a difference in Bronze alloy metallurgy IMO. Kudos to pursuing the truth in all this Steve!!! |
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mellons 3T WIS
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good communication- i do not own a benarus at moment but from reading this thread and teh excellent communication by the company i wouldn't hesitate in future!!! |
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watcher 3T WIS 
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oagaspar wrote: Are you joking or serious about this? I thought it was a joke but everyone seems to have taken it seriously. P.S. Good for Helson and Benarus for issuing this recall! Last edited on Sun Feb 5th, 2012 09:25 pm by watcher |
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Steve Laughlin 3T WIS
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I will also include this in the email, but we are not ready for the watches to be sent to me yet, enjoy them until the new cases are finished, then we will try to do the work quickly so we are not holding your watch for months. We will take back the old ones when the 70 cases are finished being produced. |
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SactoJohn 3T WIS
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Hi All, Thought I posted this previously. Dion at Magrette has been assured by his supplier of the authenticity of the Magrette bronzes, but has nontheless notified several customers that he will have the watches independently tested, and provide more information on his website shortly. Its a shame these reputable watch companies have been duped by these suppliers... |
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Steve Laughlin 3T WIS
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SactoJohn wrote:Hi All, Our supplier provided proof of authenticity also, and we have done our own investigating and discovered we have been given the wrong material. How did you post this earlier if this is your first post. |
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Johnny P Advisor
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SactoJohn wrote:Hi All, You probably need to post this at WUS, they have a thread over their saying how great their Magrette brass watch is.  Here is the link good luck. http://forums.watchuseek.com/f74/magrette-regattare-bronze-just-released-578084-28.html |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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SactoJohn wrote: Hi All,...I hope Dion is as truthful as Steve/Ralf and Peter have been. |
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SactoJohn 3T WIS
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Steve Laughlin wrote: SactoJohn wrote: Registered and sent reply earlier today, but it seems my post didn't "post" for some reason, so I did it again. We'll have to see what happens to Magrette... |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS 
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Hammerfjord wrote:I've been contacted by a brand I will not name who sold me a gold plated watch a while ago: They found out that it was in fact brass plated and asked me to send it back to get it redone. Aha, Sheriff....You started a gunfight. My watch won't take this "gold thing" sitting down. This is my Papyrium Watch.  |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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This Papyrium model is not the same you had before! Did you buy a second one? |
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Clickie McPete 3T WIS
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I appreciate that Benarus is doing the recall so that they get it right. However, I have to wonder if these alloys are really all that different? Is there really a significant difference between them? It almost seems a little extreme and not enough of a big deal to warrant an exchange. The current case looks like bronze to me. |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Clickie McPete wrote:I appreciate that Benarus is doing the recall so that they get it right. However, I have to wonder if these alloys are really all that different? Is there really a significant difference between them? It almost seems a little extreme and not enough of a big deal to warrant an exchange. The current case looks like bronze to me. It is bronze...But as bronze is an alloy, it contain various proportions of different metals: Each alloy has special properties. Benarus wants to use the CuSn8 because it seems to have better corrosion reacting with salt water and also has more copper who gives a very slight reddish reflect... |
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Steve Laughlin 3T WIS
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I really noticed the cusn8 the other day when I was at a store that sold music instruments. The percussion cymbals that are made from cusn8 are a very beautiful color. Once you have them side by side you really notice the difference. Helson has the CUSN8 on the new bronze shark diver and you can tell the difference. Here it is next to one of our Morays that has the wrong material. Once we have all of our past watches restored with the new cases there will not be any questions about which watches look better and have real patina and not tarnish. |
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Steve Laughlin 3T WIS
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I want to be clear about some details. This is not the fault of our factory. Our factory was very disappointed when the test results came back and they are paying for most of the recall costs involved. The problem came from the supplier of the bronze, these are people who sell bars of alloys... steel, titanium, brass, bronze... they sell metal bars, they are not a factory or involved in machining. We have a very close relationship with our factory and they are absolutely the best. |
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Steve Laughlin 3T WIS
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I didn't have a date from Ralf when I first posted... now I know new info... the new cases will be finished in March. Owners can send their watch to me at any time starting now. please include your name, return address, and case finish (brushed or blasted). I will record this info on a spread sheet with the watch serial number. I will be sending them back in groups as they arrive. There is no timeline or deadline for the recall. I will probably get the remaining new cases sent to me when we are finished so I can do the swap in the US for the late comers. |
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ericf 3T WIS 
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This whole Bronze fiasco is unreal........Really amazing that all of the sudden the bomb drops and all of the smaller brands sourcing from suppliers gets this news dumped on them....I own a Bronze Anonimo and Im guessing its the real deal since they were one of the first to do bronze.......famous last words.... That said, I don't own any micro brand pieces so this doesn't apply to me, but I really applaud how many of these smaller brands are handling themselves and treating their customers...... The one thing i wish the big guys would take from this is how customer service really can be handled even in difficult PR nightmare types of scenarios. |
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Steve Laughlin 3T WIS
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I was in a Best Buy store the other day and I went into the musical instrument room. They had very nice bronze cymbals on the drum set and they were a nice reddish pink color, they were brand new, unused cymbals. Our new bronze is 100% lab tested cusn8, we will not make the same mistake 2 times and go through all this trouble again. In this photo you can see the new Helson which is the same batch of cusn8 that we have bought and tested. To be more transparent, Ralf and Peter Helson have been in contact with each other since discovering the problem and they have been working together on this to get the correct bronze ordered.  Last edited on Wed Feb 8th, 2012 09:28 am by Steve Laughlin |
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Steve Laughlin 3T WIS
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I have never had the opportunity to hold the bronze Pam, but I have decades of photography experience and I understand white balance and light temperatures very well. Color over the internet is difficult because of the many different computer monitors out there. But the images that are posted online are only as good as the original photo. The camera that takes a photo needs to be reading the light correctly, if it is not than the white balance will be off and the image will be too blue, too yellow, or too red. When a camera and the lighting are set to match, then the white balance is correct and the other colors become correct. I have found these images of the Pam that I think are correctly balanced and the color of the new Helson with cusn8 can be compared.  I have not adjusted any of the images in photoshop. Last edited on Wed Feb 8th, 2012 09:53 am by Steve Laughlin |
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Steve Laughlin 3T WIS
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looking over the Paistes cymbal website, one of the CUSN8 cymbals is the model 2002 and it is easily found on this page in the center, with its reddish color... you can click each model to get more info on the materials... http://www.paiste.com/e/cymbalfam.php?menuid=3 Last edited on Wed Feb 8th, 2012 10:13 am by Steve Laughlin |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Steve,Ralf and Peter....I have 100% confidence in all of you,that the new bronze offerings will be exactly what you say it is...Thank You for going above and beyond,you have set an example I would hope all other watch companies will follow! |
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SactoJohn 3T WIS
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Great pictures Steve! Can you explain why CuSn8 was chosen rather than one of the many other Bronze alloys? If everyone knows this, I apologize. |
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Steve Laughlin 3T WIS
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because it is real bronze, it is a pure composition of copper and tin, it is sea water resistant, it is a nice color, and it is the bronze used on the Pam 382. |
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SactoJohn 3T WIS
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Thanks, good reasons. |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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has heard anything from Magrette and their bronze test...seems like a long time has passed since Dions rep said this would be done? |
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watcher 3T WIS
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oagaspar wrote:has heard anything from Magrette and their bronze test...seems like a long time has passed since Dions rep said this would be done? There's no update yet. Regattare Bronze We just learned that two of our colleague watch brands issued a recall for some of their watches after 3rd party tests showed that the alloy these watches were made of is not the CuSn8 that they ordered from their supplier. Needless to say that we will have our Regattare Bronze tested as well to ensure we have been selling what we believe is a watch with a massive CuSn8 case. We have confirmation of our supplier that the alloy we ordered and received indeed is CuSn8, but we will have this double checked in a laboratory to make 100% sure. We will keep you updated on our facebook page / news page of our web site. If it is necessary we will contact previous buyers by email as soon as we have more info. Rest assured we will do anything in our power to ensure that we get to the bottom of this. |
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watchdaddy1 3T WIS 
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Hammerfjord wrote: Steve Laughlin wrote:  JERKS THOUGHT WE WAS BUDS  .....!!!!! HE,HE,HELast edited on Wed Feb 22nd, 2012 11:32 am by watchdaddy1 |
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watchdaddy1 3T WIS
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I have full confidence in BOTH parties, & to come 4ward like this & take care of it is what REAL c/s is about. Kudos to Benarus & Helson both TOP NOTCH Companies. & I just reserved the new Bronze Moray if that tells you anything .Last edited on Wed Feb 22nd, 2012 11:37 am by watchdaddy1 |
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Johnny P Advisor
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Magrette's response at WUS ref: bronze watch.  Bull S^&t they were caught with their pants down. They knew that watch was brass first indication was the price. 
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oagaspar Site Founder
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gotta agree Johnny...Dion knows watches,or at least that is what his minions keep saying,so how does he not know when he pays pennies on a dollar for a watch that it's anything but brass?...the cheapest metallic case material available... Something smells rotten in the state of Denmark! ...it's unfortunate that the 100's of WIS who bought will never end up owning a bronze Magrette,but end up getting nothing in the end,but a few trinkets and the shaft!...except for those excited, inept WIS who believe they have a future collectible they can stable along side their most treasured 6 value pay watch beginning with the letter L or R... |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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C'mon guys! Brass is cool! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Ku9tKBs20&feature=related |
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Johnny P Advisor
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Hammerfjord wrote:C'mon guys! Brass is cool! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Ku9tKBs20&feature=related To those who know They do not know. |
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ericf 3T WIS
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What a mess.....as a consumer I would be less than thrilled and would get my moneyback.. |
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Devin 3T WIS 
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What are people thinking??? http://forums.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-magrette-regattare-bronze-brass-sold-657499.html |
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stew77 Admin
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Devin wrote:What are people thinking??? I'm with you Trent!!! There are WIS (which we KNOW are a strange bunch ), and then there are uninformed WIS (uhhhh.......).Forget patina...just imagine how cool that 'corrosion' will look after repeated exposure to salt water and the elements many years down the road. |
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Jeep99dad 3T WIS
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check this guy out.... Misprint on the dial idiots... http://forums.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-magrette-bronze-sold-out-near-new-box-657083.html |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Jeep99dad wrote:check this guy out.... Misprint on the dial Yeah, why not! It worked out with Rolex... They used a crap dial varnish who cracks and BANG the price shoots in space with a "spider-web" nick-name. When you can sell wind, you can sell a fart... |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Hammerfjord wrote: Jeep99dad wrote:that worked with a real brand like Rolex Will,but I doubt it will be anything more than a fart with the poc brass Magrette...which with age will not only corrode,but stink like sulphur as well... Attachment: farting man.jpg (Downloaded 101 times) |
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Devin 3T WIS
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oagaspar wrote:Hammerfjord wrote:Jeep99dad wrote:that worked with a real brand like Rolex Will,but I doubt it will be anything more than a fart with the poc brass Magrette...which with age will not only corrode,but stink like sulphur as well... |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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oagaspar wrote:Hammerfjord wrote:Jeep99dad wrote:that worked with a real brand like Rolex Will,but I doubt it will be anything more than a fart with the poc brass Magrette...which with age will not only corrode,but stink like sulphur as well... Hehe, I know: But seems like others can't make the difference...Maybe it works for the poor-man collector wannabe. Still, those "collector defects" make me laugh... |
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Jeep99dad 3T WIS
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no sir, it IS a COLLECTIBLE, yes sir!!!!!!! and the dial was a misprint!!!, for real, so they intended to sell Brass all along?? Didn't get that from Dion's letter Man someof these guys are a trip.... they'd sell their mother for a penny... scary |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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statement from company rep: " I was thinking (smile modus on) that this model could be a very sought-after relic from the MAGRETTE history in 20 years time". C'mon now,REALLY!? Attachment: turd.jpg (Downloaded 88 times) |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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oagaspar wrote:statement from company rep: Seriously!? He can start a sect with visions like that |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Hammerfjord wrote: oagaspar wrote:Will...it seems he has started a sect of morons....his latest statement as of a hour ago:"The product even today was sold to customers who did not care about the outcome and wanted the product as is. Which still is a nice watch with great looks and a good price point I guess"...to sell this watch regardless if a customer wants one "as is" imo is shady business...it only tells me Dion does not care to make things right,not only to his customers,but to himself!...if he is willing to sell this watch knowing now that it is brass,for the same price as when it was supposed to be CuSn8 bronze,then WTF would anyone believe he didn't know all along? |
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Johnny P Advisor
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oagaspar wrote:Hammerfjord wrote:oagaspar wrote:Will...it seems he has started a sect of morons....his latest statement as of a hour ago:"The product even today was sold to customers who did not care about the outcome and wanted the product as is. Which still is a nice watch with great looks and a good price point I guess"...to sell this watch regardless if a customer wants one "as is" imo is shady business...it only tells me Dion does not care to make things right,not only to his customers,but to himself!...if he is willing to sell this watch knowing now that it is brass,for the same price as when it was supposed to be CuSn8 bronze,then WTF would anyone believe he didn't know all along? Ditto! bro! In my opinion Dion knew these watches were brass to begin with sold them as bronze. This was a scam from the get go!!! Dion if you're reading this you're one sorry individual !!! If you don't like my repsond let me know a place and time I have the fortitude to back my crap up. I would love to call you a scammer in front of your face and see how you would react; after you see with what or whom you're dealing with. There is no doubt in my mind that Helson and Benarus were dooped by the supplier but they took corrective action. What is your excuse beside scamming fellow WIS that don't know any better. I personally suspected this watch was brass in the beginning, but now it has been proven what is your excuse as the vendor? I suspect Magrette life span is going to be very short, unless they continue having a large following of morons as I see at WUS they might survive. Excuse my grammar or the way I write I grew up in the ghetto an I'm very proud of it life has been my greatest teacher. Magrette has been caught with their pants down! JMO |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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I think someone heard you Gumba Johnny!...the "bronzass" has been removed from the website! |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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oagaspar wrote:Hammerfjord wrote:oagaspar wrote:Will...it seems he has started a sect of morons....his latest statement as of a hour ago:"The product even today was sold to customers who did not care about the outcome and wanted the product as is. Which still is a nice watch with great looks and a good price point I guess"...to sell this watch regardless if a customer wants one "as is" imo is shady business...it only tells me Dion does not care to make things right,not only to his customers,but to himself!...if he is willing to sell this watch knowing now that it is brass,for the same price as when it was supposed to be CuSn8 bronze,then WTF would anyone believe he didn't know all along? The thing is that the slightly reddish CuSn8 has a very different color tone from this brass they used who's has a tone more like the pale 9ct gold...    |
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Johnny P Advisor
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No it's still there. http://www.magrette.com/the-timepieces-regattare-bronze.php With this vision in mind we have designed a solid brass brushed case that has been purposely created to patina quickly. This patina affect is intended to add depth of character to the case as well as giving it a truly vintage look when the antique aging takes affect. WTF |
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Jeep99dad 3T WIS
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Holy crap JOhnny, you did not make it up... it is straight from their site... "With this vision in mind we have designed a solid brass brushed case that has been purposely created to patina quickly. This patina affect is intended to add depth of character to the case as well as giving it a truly vintage look when the antique aging takes affect. " I was giving them the benefit of the doubt til now but this is saying they meant to design a brass cased watch and called it the Bronze Regattare with a dial that says bronze!!!?? WTF????????????? |
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Devin 3T WIS
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This is really just too sad! Be a man with STONES Dion and admit the truth! |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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nothing surprises me about Dion now...he relists the bronze and rewrites it as a visionary brass creation,what he knew it was from day one,and it's business as usual...all while his kool aid drinking fans sit waiting for their new CuSn8 cases at the worlds largest scammer forum!... btw,why is a 50m watch being discussed on a DWF? The Timepieces Regattare Bronze I've always been a solid fan of the classic vintage yachts and thought it fitting my next timepiece design embrace the use of brass as a homage to these beautiful vessels. With this vision in mind we have designed a solid brass brushed case that has been purposely created to patina quickly. This patina affect is intended to add depth of character to the case as well as giving it a truly vintage look when the antique aging takes affect. Keeping with Magrette's vision plus incorporating the vintage objective, we have added a chocolate brown dial but retained our modern Regattare numerals. By doing so, we have preserved our minimal trademark look and feel. Another feature we felt we had to incorporate to encapsulate the old world feel is the use of New Zealand native Kauri (agathis australis). This has been designed to be viewed under the transparent glass back. Ancient Kauri found in New Zealand is the oldest workable wood in the world. The trees have been buried and preserved underground in swamps for more than 45,000 years. Giant Kauri trees were considered by Maori to be the kings of New Zealand forests. The Kauri is one of the largest and oldest growing trees in the world. Living Kauri trees are now protected. Click here for more information The Reggattare Vintage Bronze features the Miyota 21 Jewel Automatic Movement. It has a 45 hour reserve and uses 'Parashock' - its own proprietary shock resistance on the balance. The Miyota has a track record of accuracy, dependability and longevity; three characteristics that Magrette timepiece wearers have whole-wristedly embraced. This timepiece will be a Limited Edition of 1000 pieces worldwide. Model: Reggattare Vintage Bronze Movement: 21 jewels (Miyota) Automatic Case: Brass, brush finish, 44mm excluding the crown. Crown: Screw down Crystal: Sapphire, AR (anti reflective) coated inside the crystal Water-resistance: 5 ATM (approx 132ft) Strap: 24mm Leather (black with black stitching) Box: Eco pine Vintage Style Roll Case: Canvas Limited Edition: 1000 pieces Price: $385.00 USD plus $30.00 shipping worldwide. |
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MrMayface 3T WIS
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This is funny. Dude got over big time with this one. Glad I didn't pull the trigger like I started to. |
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stew77 Admin
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Jeep99dad wrote:Holy crap JOhnny, you did not make it up... True indeed...I have NEVER given him the benefit of the doubt...frankly, I KNOW TOO MUCH and integrity seems to truly be lacking in the business plan!!! Actions speak much louder than words, although in this case words are right up there matching actions 1:1...it's really a shame, but then again...it always has been, even before the "bronze"...a company seemingly founded on turning a profit no matter the lack of integrity...where customer service finishes a distant LAST when you get caught with your pants down....nothing funny about it... |
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Khronos 3T WIS 
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Haha, just read Magrette's page: The case is described as "brass" (ok, ignoring the fact it has "bronze" stamped all over it) but if you scroll to the bottom, you get a very accurate description of the "bronze patina effect". Shame the effect will not work on the BRASS case... |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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WTF is wrong with this guy!? First, it's not bronze as he wanted and now he says that it's brass as he wanted? SHAME |
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MBGECARL 3T WIS 
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I'm new to serious watches, my first foray into the craftsman market being the Remora II. I took that research seriously, including getting on this forum and I am GRATEFUL for you guys, the good watch companies on this forum and the integrity that is shared my most if not all participants here. Good news, I think, is that the marketplace deals with folks like Dion in the most brutal way: they go out of business because no one wants to feel cheated, be mislead, lied to or otherwise feel victimized by a purveyor, certainly not a watch maker, one of the most hallowed and revered occupations over the last 150+ years. Good thing there are still bubblegum machines in supermarkets. I think Dion will have a new outlet for his wares.... |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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it's unfortunate that Magrette continues to do nothing,they knew what they were selling,and got caught.Magrette now needs to make things right by either re-casing the sold watches as advertsised in CuSn8 bronze as Benarus and Helson have already done,or give full refunds to those who want one.Once this is done,then,and only then,re-release your visionary brass watch,and hope that no one else decides to release the same watch for far less than $385.! |
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Tony Duronio 3T WIS 
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Appears like they decided to take the high road and offer a replacement option http://us4.campaign-archive2.com/?u=4b9082d2b7af2d88e742570a1&id=ef8e19534f |
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Johnny P Advisor
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Tony Duronio wrote:Appears like they decided to take the high road and offer a replacement option I'll believe it when people start getting their brass cases replaced with bronze in the next five to six months. I'm glad for them, but I shall remain skeptical in the meantime until then. |
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Jeep99dad 3T WIS
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Johnny P wrote:Tony Duronio wrote: That sounds like good options for the buyers, fair and right thing to do. I don't see why they'd lie on thkie letter and not complete the swap at this point. I hope all buyers get ther watches back up to their satisfaction. THis bronze debacle has been horrible for the three brands impacted for sure. I just really think Magrette toook a little too much toime to sort it out and some of the verbiage on their site is misleading or confusing or whatever it is, but it seems they are fdoing the right thing at this point. |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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5 to 6 mos. before any case swap...that is like a lifetime to some WIS,but the best option imo!...or a cheap strap and 15% off(something most will not likely buy) is not a great option imo(took 1 mo. to get here)...I have had several owners tell me they are not giving cash refunds...WTF... ,,,,,since the original owners are getting a real CuSn8 bronze case for $385. which is a great deal,then why do the new buyers for the brass watch think they are getting anything worth $385.when that was the price for the bronze?! ...now...who would be interested in a brass watch,identical to the Magrette case,with choice of 3 dial colors(forum participation in the dial design & colors),and a hacking ST2130(eta 2824 clone)...for @ $200. Attachment: brass case1.jpg (Downloaded 97 times) |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Hahaha, Oscar, you open a new Chinese business to crush Magrette? |
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Jeep99dad 3T WIS
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That's definitely be interesting!! |
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Johnny P Advisor
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oagaspar wrote:5 to 6 mos. before any case swap...that is like a lifetime to some WIS,but the best option imo!...or a cheap strap and 15% off(something most will not likely buy) is not a great option imho(took 1 mo. to get here)...I have had several owners tell me they are not giving cash refunds...WTF?...but then when you are looking at getting notta... Oscar your first mistake was calling it brass, you should've come up with a nice punch line ( e.g., Called it an exotic metal retrieved from Mars by the space mission rovers, Spirit and Opportunity, or a rare metal retrieved from outer space by the Mars rovers ), for $200.00. This thread would have been flooded with all kind of replies. What's wrong with you, haven't you learn a thing or two from the grand masters yet? "My english isn't very good looking" Celia Cruz ( RIP ) |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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not trying to crush anyone,just giving WIS a choice at a more realistic price for brass...with that said: I've always been a solid fan of the classic vintage door knobs and 50 caliber shell casings and thought it fitting my first timepiece design embrace the use of brass as a homage to these beautiful objects. With this vision in mind I,with the help of the forum members, plan on designing a solid brass brushed case that has been purposely created to corrode quickly. This patina/corrosion affect is intended to add depth of character to the case as well as giving it a truly vintage look when the antique aging takes affect. |
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Johnny P Advisor
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oagaspar wrote:not trying to crush anyone,just giving WIS a choice at a more realistic price for brass...with that said: There you go bro! I knew you had it in you I want one now, I'm very proud to be associated with you Gumba.  |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Johnny P wrote:oagaspar wrote:+1! Oscar is the man  |
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Johnny P Advisor
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Hammerfjord wrote:Johnny P wrote: +2 For you guys, and gals that's reading this thread we need your input for the brass watch. Thank you! |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Zenton is also doing a recall for a case swap now,apparently they also fell victim,and are doing the right thing! ...seems 3 watch companies had no problem nor delay in knowing exactly what to do...no ifs,ands,or buts...return the watch and we will make good on a bronze case as advertised!....No 5-6 mos. wait,no cheap strap so you keep your brass watch,and definitely not continuing to sell the brass watch...which will further confuse WIS when it comes to the sales forums that end up with both the brass,and the bronze cased watches up FS with the same freekin' dial! |
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Jeep99dad 3T WIS
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I read that too about their Z42(OR 43)... sucks for them. Hoepfully they get the new xases replaced quickly for their clients... was tha model sold out or are they still making them? |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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WOW!...didn't see this one coming...NOT!...next up Olivier! As you know, we have been planning to start the exchange of your brass case with bronze parts in the period of July-Sep. This planning was based on the delivery date we agreed with the new case manufacturer. Everything on our side was ready to go and we planned to send you an email now with final instructions. However, last Friday we had to reject the final pre-production samples we received from our supplier. The parts did not meet our quality criteria. Earlier samples we received a while ago were OK. We have checked with some other manufacturers but already could predict the outcome. There is no way we will be able to get new parts manufactured in less than 5 months' time. We do not think it is realistic to ask you to wait that much longer. In the meantime our hopes of getting financial compensation for the wrongly delivered material from our old supplier vaporized. We learned the hard way that - even when you are right - it does not mean you always get what you are entitled to. So, faced with this new reality, we propose 4 alternatives. We hope that one of them is the best one for you in light of this new situation. If, however, you see still another option: please let us know and we will respond to it as soon as possible. OPTIONS: 1. You keep the watch, accepting a 15% discount on your next watch purchase (valid until June 2013) and a set of black/brown straps with stainless steel buckles, OR; 2. You keep the watch and accept a payment of $100 USD as compensation for delivering a brass instead of bronze case. Please allow up to 6 weeks to receive payment, OR; 3. You order a different Magrette watch and we will trade in the brass model as part-payment in the value of $285.00USD , OR; 4. You send back the watch, strap(s), roll-case, papers and box and we will pay back the original invoice amount after receiving back your watch. Please include your paypal or bank details (incl. IBAN/SWIFT info), date of purchase and number of the watch. Please allow up to 6 weeks to receive payment. Side note: we plan to offer the returned watches in our web shop as pre-owned with full warranty. If necessary we will brush the cases to like-new condition. Price will be $285 USD,-. We will have to do this to recoup our costs and are confident that there is a market for them. We have been selling this model in our web shop at $385 USD,- since we discovered the alloy was brass. It continued to sell as people just like the looks and price point. Please reply to this email and tell us which option you prefer and we will be in touch as soon as possible. Looking back, we realize we have failed to live up to our promise and have let you down. For this we apologize. What remains is our personal integrity and our promise to continue our business in the way we have done in the past: To our best knowledge, with our best intentions, driven by passion and believing in service with a personal touch. With best regards, Dion |
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Scart 3T WIS 
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Kudos to Benarus |
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Craustin1 3T WIS
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Better not Olivier, not after all this has happened before. It would be a shame and hard to explain to customers if this does happen. |
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Craustin1 3T WIS
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Lum-tec has an upcoming bronze later this year. Is there more confidence with this release? |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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I'm not sure about Olivier or Lum Tec,nor where they are expecting to find the CuSn8/CuSn7 aka European Red Bronze as I heard that it has been bought up by one of the major Asian manufacturers by way of one of the better known micro brands....I do know that there a are few micros who share the same manufacturer,and thus have this bronze available to them.Olivier/Lum Tec are not one of these micros. ...in conversation with a couple of the micro owners,and more recently an Italian bronze buckle maker I have been told that to the Chinese consider bronze =brass,and that kind of tells the story of how all this came to be....even if Magrette was able to find the red bronze they promised it would have cost them plenty to replace the cases...to the point of losing money on the whole venture,and I don't know too many small companies who would be able to endure that,and still stay afloat.I believe that Magrette made good a financial business decision by what they are offering...no one can argue with the choices at hand which include a full refund imho,as well as re-selling the returned watches for less money after some cosmetic remedies...win/win. |
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Craustin1 3T WIS
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Makes sense, thx for the write up. |
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movas 3T WIS
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Well, here's the insider's lowdown. This is from our personal experience trying to get a CuSn8 bronze case made for our dive watches in China. In China/ HK, there is no such thing as CuSn8. CuSn8 is an brand name of an alloy by a swiss company. A company in Germany sells a similar Copper Alloy but it goes by a different trade name. They only know of the following types of Brass. Yellow Brass (Pure copper), Green Brass, and Pink Brass. What everyone has been getting thus far is Yellow Brass. When we first asked for Bronze, that was what the case makers were suggesting. That's because Yellow Brass watch cases are already being made nowadays mostly for lowend/ cheap watches which then get plated. Brass is also widely used and easily available in the watch industry. When I told them NO, I want bronze, and bronze has a pinkish hue, they then told me, easy, just take the brass and plate it with rose gold! That's why some cases you have seen thus far have had a pinkish hue replicating CuSn8 Bronze but does not patina/ tarnish easily. As the pink hue is actually from a plating (which also tarnishes mind you, just not as quickly). When we tried to locate the material ourselves in China, we managed to find a couple of suppliers for Bronze. However Bronze is generally sold in sheet form. This is not suitable for watch making as it is too thin. In order to cast the required size for watch cases would entail 3.5 tonnes of CuSn8 to be processed. The closest thing you can get is what is called Tin Copper or Phosphorous Copper. However the composition varies, sometimes you may get CuSn6 and is not the same as CuSn8. The final solution we came up with was to actually 'create' the mixture for CuSn8 with a materials supplier in China. This is done by giving them the material composition and getting them to mix it and cast/ forge it. The purity for sure will not be similar to CuSn8 from switzerland/ germany but it will inevitably have a similar range of metal composition and be a lot cheaper. Do note that there is no real history in the usage of Bronze for watch cases. It is actually a new material introduced to the dive market, and in reality the material CuSn8 is only popular as it has been shown to be what is used by some of the bigger brands for their Bronze watch offering. Personally I feel that watch cases should not be constrained by this, that brands should be allowed the freedom to experiment with different alloys for a similar effect. But brands should be honest about what they are giving their customers, case in point Kazimon, not a CuSn8 case but a great selection of Bronze nonetheless. We are doing our version of CuSn8 because we like the colour/ hue, and the patina it gives. Hope that it works out well, it is a huge investment but it suits the look of our divers so we will try. That's the short version of the story by the way, hope you have a better understanding from where I am standing. |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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as I said in China bronze=brass....that's why Benarus,Helson,and Armida sourced their bronze from a German supplier...European Red bronze/CuSn8 as I mentioned above...there is NO bronze in China...Sean/Movas...what you will get will not be a cheaper from of CuSn8...there are enough WIS confused as I mentioned before without another composition coming into play....bronze is bronze ,...China bronze is brass...period! |
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movas 3T WIS
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Hi Oscar, This is generally untrue. Bronze has been used in China for a long time now. Just not for watches AND not with the CuSn8 composition. Brass does not equate to Bronze in China or vise versa. If by Bronze you just mean CuSn8 and nothing else, then yes, it is not available in China in the form required for watches (as I mentioned they come in sheets). To me, getting material from another country so it can be processed in China does not make sense (and as i said, it's my opinion). You either get it swiss or german made. Making a Bronze with the same composition as CnSn8 in China is possible and what we are doing now. Like I said, it won't be as pure I am sure, an analysis after the fact will determine this, and the percentages we end up with. We will not advertise our watches as CnSn8 because that is not what it is (as I mentioned that is a tradename, not a material name). |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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movas wrote: Hi Oscar,Sean...the bronze used in China,as you say "for a long time now" is called "Commercial bronze" ...known in other parts of the world as "Brass"...90% copper 10% zinc....send me one of your "Chinese bronze" watch cases with your new mix when you have a case made,and I will gladly test it for you...until then you are just blowing smoke my friend... |
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movas 3T WIS
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Hi Oscar, Honestly, you will be one of the first to receive one once it is done. As I explained to you before, we are now assembling the watches in house, so we purchase material ourselves and get cases made separately as opposed to ordering complete watches as most do and as we used to do before. Does this guarantee that I won't be shafted, well no, but it does limit the possibility and at least I will find out before it's too late down the chain. This allows greater control, but involves alot more work. BTW, have you sent your AG back for a dial change? oagaspar wrote: movas wrote:Hi Oscar,Sean...the bronze used in China,as you say "for a long time now" is called "Commercial bronze" ...known in other parts of the world as "Brass"...90% copper 10% zinc....send me one of your "Chinese bronze" watch cases with your new mix when you have a case made,and I will gladly test it for you...until then you are just blowing smoke my friend... |
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Devin 3T WIS
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Movas what watches do you manufacture? |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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movas wrote: Hi Oscar,as always I wish you the best Sean...your willingness to do things differently is what makes you who you are my friend...I hope the bronze venture is successful for you! |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Devin wrote: Movas what watches do you manufacture?here you go Trent... http://timetechtalk.com/view_topic.php?id=21702&forum_id=1&highlight=movas Attachment: 0 movas.jpg (Downloaded 112 times) |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS
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oagaspar wrote:Devin wrote:Movas what watches do you manufacture?here you go Trent... That's a heck of a good lookin' watch, O. I like the boldness of the case. WOW! And as for the confusion on bronze or hybrid bronze or virtual bronze, my opinion is that as long as the watch company is totally transparent on the material and the material's composition, that will be good enough for buyers like me. Glad to know that CuSn8 is a brand name and strictly speaking, not a material. |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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CuSn8 is a chemical formula name, nothing else. As this alloy is mainly maid of copper(Cu from latin Cuprum) and tin(Sn from latin Stannum) and 8 from the tin porcentage. So it is an alloy basically made of 92% copper and 8% tin(more or less). There is traces of other metals but it don't exceed 0.4% for the largest: Ni or Nickel. See there: http://www.foxwire.co.uk/userfiles/file/Phosphor%20Bronze%20CuSn8-PB104%20Datasheet(1).pdf The CuSn6 spoken earlier in the thread is as well nothing else than an alloy with 94% of copper and 6% of tin. Speaking of a deposed name is kind of ridiculous as this alloy been used since long in various industries. It is just recently that it was used in watch cases. |
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cfm21665 3T WIS
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Hi guys, just to add some more info, I received my rebodied Zenton b42, about 2 weeks ago, and according to Zenton it uses AB5S (CuAl11Fe6Ni6), sourced from Germany. It cefrtainly is a huge difference from the brass case, it has a nice even patina, I've been on vacation at the beach so it has had hours upon hours of exposure to salt water day after day for the last two weeks, looks great. I'll try to post some pics of it as soon as I can . |
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Devin 3T WIS
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cfm21665 wrote:Hi guys, just to add some more info, I received my rebodied Zenton b42, about 2 weeks ago, and according to Zenton it uses AB5S (CuAl11Fe6Ni6), sourced from Germany. It cefrtainly is a huge difference from the brass case, it has a nice even patina, I've been on vacation at the beach so it has had hours upon hours of exposure to salt water day after day for the last two weeks, looks great. I'll try to post some pics of it as soon as I can . Thanks for the info. Photos would be great! |
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movas 3T WIS
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This was our first prototype out from the forged mold with brass. FAIL! LOL, new bronze case sample should be out shortly. It's getting busy here. Not sure when I'll ever get to actually selling watches! |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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movas wrote:This was our first prototype out from the forged mold with brass. FAIL! LOL, new bronze case sample should be out shortly. Very first time I see a watch case molded and not cut or stamped in fact. It gives a vintage -eaten by the reef- look, who's after my meaning not so bad even many might think "WTF?. I experienced newly with brass dials in salt water and got and "old marine bronze piece freshly out of the sea" look. Would be great on a case like that for those who like the "Reef look" |
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movas 3T WIS
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First sample, wrong case shape! lol. Also realised that bronze is softer than 316L, so have to make the crown protectors fixed instead of screwed into case, as it's hard to get the tolerance right. Also have to look at some kind of clear coating as the bronze is oxidising too quickly especially in Singapore.  Last edited on Wed Sep 12th, 2012 09:54 am by movas |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS
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Would you happen to have close-up shots/macro shots, amigo? I just want to see the material up close. Thaks and More Power to Movas |
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