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Luminated 3T WIS
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Interesting new dive watch has just been launched offering a very unique case in both S/Steel and bronze, I've been following this watch on wus and I have to say the design of the case is most interesting especially when you see it in side profile.   It's always worth checking out a new watch and this one is a beauty. |
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oagaspar Site Founder 
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with the track record of upstart watch companies paying WUS for advertising privileges I would be leery at best...already see two red flags after reading the thread...it is not a bronze watch selling at $295. pre-order,most likely brass...and the watch is not even in production...just another guy relying on pre-order monies to even get the watch off the ground...save your money until the watch is produced and ready FS...shades of Olivier,Tempest!  |
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Luminated 3T WIS
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^I do see your point especially with what happened with Olivier but this case is quite unique and as far as I'm aware not off the shelf. Though you have to admit it is cracking looking. |
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Hammerfjord Moderator 
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The crown don't check out from the face view to the profile view on drawings... Another out-of-the-blue company preorder money built-up chinese project with bronze/brass cases as said Oscar. For the design, I don't find it so unique either but wich one can be on today's market..? Since they never produced watches before, I would personally stay away. I bought Helberg on drawings since they already made the H2O: Without that fact, they would never have seen a dime from me. Don't want my money been gone in a tempest.... |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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off the shelf is a bad term since most case manufacturers do not stockpile cases,on occasion if a case is rejected it is sold off to a wholesaler ie:SAS/CRUX..."catalogue case" is a better term as there are catalogues for the various HK manufactures...mix and match cases are common among several vendors who take a case and add a different bezel,move the crown etc...most all case manufacturers want you to use something from their catalogue since their machines are set up for these designs...a pure design of your own can be very expensive even if you did all the drawings and blueprints yourself. this particular case design that Makara is using looks like a variation of the Hexa case and before long someone will find the same case being used by another company...like Will said...save your money for the finished product...if it ever materializes! |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS 
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Looks ok, but not a head turner, but I agree with Will and Oscar. Super low price points for pre-order tend to make me doubt the entire deal. With the recent shakedowns on bronze claims, I'd really be very granular with my due diligence. |
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Timbo 3T WIS 
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oagaspar wrote: with the track record of upstart watch companies paying WUS for advertising privileges I would be leery at best...already see two red flags after reading the thread...it is not a bronze watch selling at $295. pre-order,most likely brass...and the watch is not even in production...just another guy relying on pre-order monies to even get the watch off the ground...save your money until the watch is produced and ready FS...shades of Olivier,Tempest! Just and FYI - the pre-order price of the bronze is $375. The stainless version is $295 on the pre-order. Time will tell if this one flies! |
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OldeCrow 3T WIS 
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My mother told me "Your face is going to freeze that way"... oh wait that is the wrong one... "If you don't have anything good to say don't say anything at all" Just to be clear I'm not buying one, don't want one as a gift... I must be getting old and set in my ways... |
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stew77 Admin 
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This design doesn't really do anything for me personally, and as other's have already stated...when I first read about this one from the owner, it definitely smacked of Olivier/Tempest. The Makara owner (over on another forum) did mention that this is not his first watch project, and that he's produced a couple prior to this so take that for what it is worth (I don't have any insight or experience with any of those). Best to do more due diligence if you are seriously considering this one IMO. As Will pointed out, the Crown design is not consistent between the front and side view renderings (the stepped case shown in the front view is also not consistently rendered in the side view), so I guess the renderings need some work. At the price point being asked, I suspect that you are not really getting Bronze, but some Brass formulation (and I personally prefer the patina of Bronze to the corrosion of Brass). I wish Mr. Makara the best with this offering...and most of all, I hope that he can deliver to his customers everything that he is promising. |
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Luminated 3T WIS
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It's really unfortunate for anyone trying to start a new watch company after the Olivier affair because everyone is on their guard not wanting to get bitten again, the only advantage this time round is everyone knows the PayPal rules better and will be keeping a tighter eye on the timescale. Unlike some here I actually do like the design of the case and reckon it will work great as the watch starts to patina. Price is super keen and might be putting some off thinking its too good to be true but I can't comment on that because I frankly don't know how much it costs to manufacture a watch though I reckon the markup can be huge in some cases due to brand image, materials and just how much of its manufacture is completed by hand. Last edited on Tue Jul 2nd, 2013 06:32 am by Luminated |
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stew77 Admin
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Luminated wrote:It's really unfortunate for anyone trying to start a new watch company after the Olivier affair because everyone is on their guard not wanting to get bitten again, the only advantage this time round is everyone knows the PayPal rules better and will be keeping a tighter eye on the timescale. I did check the Makara website, and see that they are advertising CuSn8 Bronze for the case material. All I will say is that the best micro-brands have learned quite a bit regarding the supply chain for CuSn8 Bronze (including suppliers that claim one thing, and provide something that is not-quite-bronze...ie. Brass). If we consider the history of CuSn8 cased watch offerings, it appears to me that at this price point, ALL offerings have turned out to be Brass cased watches in the end. (I do prefer patina to corrosion over the long haul for my watch cases, so I'll stick with Bronze). Like I said, I have nothing against Makara and love it when a nano/micro produces a great product for a great price, while at the same time offering their customers great customer service and transparency in delivering what they have promised. If you have ordered one of these, I hope that Makara delivers on their promise (including CuSn8 Bronze), and look forward to seeing some pics when your's arrives! |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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you would think that these WUS guys would have learned by now after licking their wounds over Olivier and Magrette that there is no such thing as a $375. CuSn8 bronze watch...period!  |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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CuSn8 alloy only comes from Germany and from what I know they constantly refused to sell any CuSn8 bronze stock to Asia in the past. So cases made in Asia are not CuSn8: They are made from an alloy who might be close to it but not IT. That's apparently the high content of copper and difficulty to obtain this right alloy in foundry which makes it more expensive than others: Or else, every foundry in the world could easily make it, including the Chinese. At this price point, it smells like brass or cheap Chinese bronze to me. |
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Luminated 3T WIS
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^Lumtec are also claiming to be using CuSn8 for their upcoming bronze models though I was under the impression they ended up get the material locally in the USA, don't know if it were sourced in the States or they only found stock of it there. Last edited on Sat Jul 20th, 2013 09:12 am by Luminated |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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I could not tell if there's some CuSn8 made in the US: It might well be... I would rather be sure that all LumT cases are made in Asia. There's nothing wrong with the fact that cases and parts are made in Asia if the price is reflecting it. |
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Luminated 3T WIS
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They've just posted the latest prototypes nearing completion just requiring their brush finish on the cases. It does look promising. Like the fact they have a sapphire bezel that's lumed too. Last edited on Wed Jul 24th, 2013 05:18 pm by Luminated |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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sapphire bezel or ceramic?...also,these are inexpensive stamped cases. |
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Luminated 3T WIS
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oagaspar wrote:sapphire bezel or ceramic?...also,these are inexpensive stamped cases. We have been told they are sapphire so I've no reason to doubt him on this, as for the case I have own lots of watches and in all honesty I couldn't tell you which were cast and which were pressed, all I'm really into is the design and if I like it then I buy simple as that. |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Luminated wrote: oagaspar wrote:I am not sure what kind of watches you have owned,nor whether they were inexpensive or high end,but the purpose of a forum is to educate,or at least that is what is was years ago when most of us here came on board...today newbs don't seem to care about history,or manufacture type,materials or quality and only about looks...too bad because that is why these fly by night wannabe watchmakers came to exist who know very little about watches and only look to make a quick buck.Buy what you like but beware the warning here. |
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Luminated 3T WIS
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oagaspar wrote: Luminated wrote:oagaspar wrote:I am not sure what kind of watches you have owned,nor whether they were inexpensive or high end,but the purpose of a forum is to educate,or at least that is what is was years ago when most of us here came on board...today newbs don't seem to care about history,or manufacture type,materials or quality and only about looks...too bad because that is why these fly by night wannabe watchmakers came to exist who know very little about watches and only look to make a quick buck.Buy what you like but beware the warning here. I understand where you are coming from but there are a lot of recent brands which all began somewhere and probably faced similar opinions as this brand here. As for my watches, I've everything from a £50 Fossil to a £5K Rolex so I do know quality when I see it which is why we have such a wide variation in prices of watches. IMO price reflects quality for the most part and as long as you keep this in mind your expectations won't be dented. Last edited on Fri Jul 26th, 2013 12:56 pm by Luminated |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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this watch if completed will hit the sales forums the same day for a discount,wise WIS will wait and not jump on the pre-order,wiser WIS aren't even interested....btw there are more failed companies like this than those who have succeeded....buy the seller is what is preached and yet not one question to this owner about who he is,nor what his watch experience is. |
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Luminated 3T WIS
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oagaspar wrote:this watch if completed will hit the sales forums the same day for a discount,wise WIS will wait and not jump on the pre-order,wiser WIS aren't even interested....btw there are more failed companies like this than those who have succeeded....buy the seller is what is preached and yet not one question to this owner about who he is,nor what his watch experience is. Very true that most fail but my point was every one of them that made it had to start some where and I wish him all the best because with every new name that makes it the greater the choice for the consumer. Last edited on Fri Jul 26th, 2013 01:04 pm by Luminated |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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I don't think anybody wishes bad luck to any new-born watch company here... But those cheap watches are popping up like mushrooms lately and often from people who know little about watches: Designers, opportunists seeing that it sells on forums etc... I'm like any others: I wait and see. Half of them or more have no future and we all know that. But mostly, I'm personally not interested by those Asian "cheapos". |
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Luminated 3T WIS
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^I would have thought the almost all small watch brands use Asia as their workshop and its how they can offer really good well specced watches at a fraction of the price those better known Swiss brand look. I'm not sure if Benarus are made in Asia but I believe Armida are and I reckon their products as good value for what you get. |
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joecb 3T WIS 
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The bronze case has a very brassy look to it in this pic.. CuSn8 should be a deeper bronze from other true CuSn8 cases I have seen. |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Luminated wrote:^I would have thought the almost all small watch brands use Asia as their workshop and its how they can offer really good well specced watches at a fraction of the price those better known Swiss brand look. Kazimon is 100% Made-in-Germany, Aquadive has it's case made in Germany and assembly in Switzerland, Dievas has as well German made and assembled watches. All except the movement of course. I speak now about brands represented here. There's others high quality watches at reasonable prices. Don't need an Asian watch in my opinion. But it all depend of your budget. At the end, cheap is cheap... |
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joecb 3T WIS
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Luminated, take a look at the Helberg bronze thread. Here is one made in Germany of CuSn8 bronze. Big difference Last edited on Fri Jul 26th, 2013 04:38 pm by joecb |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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joecb wrote:Luminated, take a look at the Helberg bronze thread. Here is one made in Germany of CuSn8 bronze. Big difference Exactly... http://www.timetechtalk.com/forum1/25927.html |
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Luminated 3T WIS
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joecb wrote:Luminated, take a look at the Helberg bronze thread. Here is one made in Germany of CuSn8 bronze. Big difference I am fully aware of what CuSn8 bronze looks like as I own a Bebarus moray bronze and yes it does look different in this photo. He's not the first to be told he's getting CuSn8 and isn't. The patina on CuSn8 is beautiful IMO though I'm not sure whether its any more superior other mix of bronze. On this subject does anyone know why it's more prized than all others? |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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The CuSn8 has a high copper content: It gives a nice reddish color. This bronze alloy is known first of all because Anonimo and Panerai used it with success through time since the patina don't turn to an ugly grey-brown like other alloys: It keeps a nice vintage look with a warm feel in the tones. Olivier used another alloy which should have been good but the patina turned like crap: Let's be honest. I'm not a bronze fanatic at all and I'm still not mesmerized by it. It's cool but for me it's just a craze of the moment: I will wait and see. But if I had to choose, I would go for the CuSn8: Because of the reddish warm tone. |
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Timbo 3T WIS
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Wow, most everybody here wants to bury this project from the get-go. Why don't we just wait to see what they produce (or don't produce) and then decide? Had this been the attitude with everybody, a lot of good boutique brands would have never gotten off the ground. |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Timbo wrote: Wow, most everybody here wants to bury this project from the get-go. Why don't we just wait to see what they produce (or don't produce) and then decide? Had this been the attitude with everybody, a lot of good boutique brands would have never gotten off the ground.bury it,you mean dig it up...who is this guy producing this watch?...the micro brands that have made it were all started by WIS we knew long before they decided to build a watch/...if giving sound advice to not bite on a pre-order and wait until the product is finished and ready FS is burying it then so be it,as far as getting off the ground imo would not happen without the pre-order funds needed to get the watch off the ground...this is from experience and not from out of the blue,if you want to jump on it go ahead and let's see how fast it ends up on a sales forum.  |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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This is getting very funny: When from experiences like Tempest and Olivier, we just tell "wait and see if it is like it was promised" , we find ourself being peaked out like intolerant and negative... I should have say: "Really cool new design, the quality will be top, it will be CuSn8 for sure, pay in advance because this guy is rock solid!" Sorry to be honnest but I don't føcking care about which forum announces this watch, I just care about facts and possibilities. |
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Timbo 3T WIS
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oagaspar wrote:Timbo wrote:Wow, most everybody here wants to bury this project from the get-go. Why don't we just wait to see what they produce (or don't produce) and then decide? Had this been the attitude with everybody, a lot of good boutique brands would have never gotten off the ground.bury it,you mean dig it up...who is this guy producing this watch?...the micro brands that have made it were all started by WIS we knew long before they decided to build a watch/...if giving sound advice to not bite on a pre-order and wait until the product is finished and ready FS is burying it then so be it,as far as getting off the ground imo would not happen without the pre-order funds needed to get the watch off the ground...this is from experience and not from out of the blue,if you want to jump on it go ahead and let's see how fast it ends up on a sales forum. I'm sure everyone appreciates the advice not to lay down the money for a watch that may or may not be produced. What I said was wait and see what he comes up with, then decide. The sentiment here seems to be to declare this a failure before they can prove otherwise. Buyer beware, for sure! |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Timbo wrote:oagaspar wrote: If you read what was said here, the only "sentiment of failure" here was based on the fact that it would be a CuSn8 case. Simply based on the price and provenance: Very low price and Asia. The rest was just pointed at as a warning about any deposit: Since there is no background. I think we can all agree on that. |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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this is a quote from the Makara owner: "First it's not easy at all to get investors. And most of the time they'll require existing sales. So, you have to finance the business yourself in the beginning. So either you save for several years, or borrow from someone who trusts you, or borrow on a credit card. And then what, you just produce a batch of watches and hope to sell them? It's an enormous risk!" "As I said before, I believe running a pre-order is the best way to validate a business idea. And it has avantages for both sides: the business owner doesn't take a huge risk, and the customer usually gets a very good deal. Win-win!" this sums it up for me,he doesn't want to take any risk with his own money,if he has any to begin with,and he believes it's a win-win when he does not have to take a huge risk and the customer "usually" gets a good deal...I emphasize usually. btw,he doesn't accept paypal... |
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Luminated 3T WIS
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^I hate PayPal, its far easier to get reimbursed through your credit card IMO. Here's another quotes from Makara A: We only accept payment via Stripe, our credit card payment processor. Payment by credit card is safer and simpler for everyone since it allows 100% refunds without fees up to 6 months after the transaction (compared to 60 days for PayPal), in the event that you cancel your pre-order, or if the watch doesn't go to production. It also protects us from fraudulent PayPal payments and you are protected from fraudulent charges up to 6 months after the transaction (45 days with PayPal). In 6 months from now, all watches will have been delivered. Watches are a passion of mine and I'm here to build a long-lasting business. I have ideas for many other models and I need to build a good reputation if I want to continue doing this. I have an habit of over-delivering to make people extra happy! Last edited on Sat Jul 27th, 2013 11:16 am by Luminated |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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OMG you act like this watch is the best watch to come along in ages!...take a good look at the case,any experienced WIS can see it is not well made...it's cast not machined,and look into Stripe and you will see plenty of complaints since they started in 2010... If this is not enough to earn your trust, think of it this way: if I don't deliver an awesome watch within the next 6 months, you can call your bank at anytime and file a chargeback, you'll have your money back no-questions-asked! what about just asking him for a refund?...I personally have never had a problem with Paypal which I have used on 100's of transactions. watches are a passion of mine is easy to say...let's see your collection,hell who is this guy,does anyone know,does anyone want to vouch for him? like I have said previously Luminated...buy the watch based on your years of experienece..but again....pass on the pre-order and wait,you will see plenty FS on the sales forum if they ever come to fruition,and that is all we have been saying since the get go...nuff said.  |
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Luminated 3T WIS
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^Mate all I did was post a link to a new brand that was starting on the market, I naively thought others would have been as happy as I to see someone making a business out of his passion for watches. We all know it isn't going to be a Rolex at these prices but everyone has to start somewhere and in my opinion at the budget side of the market is probably best. I have no real dealing with PayPal but after reading the problems many have had regarding Olivier I feel Credit Card is a better option. |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Luminated wrote: ^Mate all I did was post a link to a new brand that was starting on the market, I naively thought others would have been as happy as I to see someone making a business out of his passion for watches. We all know it isn't going to be a Rolex at these prices but everyone has to start somewhere and in my opinion at the budget side of the market is probably best.Rolex?...perhaps Invicta! I give up,apparently you know this chap and have witnessed 1st hand his passion for watches. |
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Luminated 3T WIS
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oagaspar wrote:Luminated wrote:^Mate all I did was post a link to a new brand that was starting on the market, I naively thought others would have been as happy as I to see someone making a business out of his passion for watches. We all know it isn't going to be a Rolex at these prices but everyone has to start somewhere and in my opinion at the budget side of the market is probably best.Rolex?...perhaps Invicta! Don't know him only PMed him a few times but I do like to give someone the benefit of the doubt rather than being a sceptic from the off. |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Luminated wrote: oagaspar wrote:the benefit of a doubt should not involve you giving him your hard earned money... that is something he only benefits from my friend... |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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From what I've seen or reading to say it so, Nadim don't seem to be a WIS to me. It's just another way to make business from some project: I don't think that you would have seen him dealing with watches if his camera supports would have worked big time. And if he was a WIS, he would have pointed his nose on forums long ago like we nearly all do. Personally, that it works out or be a flop with his watch: I couldn't care less than I do today. I've turned my back long ago to watches made, built, assembled in China: It's a NONO for me, whatever the price. Because in 5 Chinese watches at 400$, I see 1 Swiss/German watch at 2000$ I will enjoy REALLY more than those. Question of priority and vision. |
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Luminated 3T WIS
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oagaspar wrote:Luminated wrote:oagaspar wrote:the benefit of a doubt should not involve you giving him your hard earned money... that is something he only benefits from my friend... Lumtec, Halios, Crepas to name but a few all have been running a pre-sales system for long enough and I'm sure at the beginning many thought twice about handing over their hard earned cash but now no one would give it a second thought. It's a means to an end, you can gauge the interest prior to production and adjust accordingly if required, those willing to pay a deposit and wait get rewarded with discount, those unwilling to pay upfront don't. Last edited on Sat Jul 27th, 2013 05:44 pm by Luminated |
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Timbo 3T WIS
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Luminated wrote:oagaspar wrote: It seems that the difference between these guys and the one in question is that the folks here knew and trusted the people starting those watch brands before the pre-sale. There also seems to be a great deal of doubt that he can build a bronze watch for the asking price. My attitude remains the same; see what he comes up with first, then decide. |
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Luminated 3T WIS
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Latest update from MakaraI'll reply to all the comments/questions in a moment. Just a quick pic for now, well 2 actually :P Last edited on Sun Aug 4th, 2013 08:18 am by Luminated |
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