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Black list - prepared by Uhren Magazin and Chronos

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Posted: Fri Oct 4th, 2013 08:01 pm

mcwright
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Patrik72 wrote: Bit confused why TORGOEN is on the list. Its an American owned company. Watch is put together in Switzerland and has a ETA G10-211 as movement.

Im referring to the T16 model in this case. I used to own one and it was a pretty nice watch.

I actually contacted the website that published this list before buying my Torgoen. I wanted an answer to why it was on their list. Never got a reply, so i bought the watch. (The reason i sold it? It was to big for my tiny wrist. 53mm from top to bottom lug.)

I recomend not to take the list too seriously.

Look at the date of the original post:

Posted: Thursday Nov 8th, 2007 11:35 AM

Posted: Sat Oct 5th, 2013 08:33 am

Patrik72
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Joined:	Sat Aug 10th, 2013
Location:	Sweden
Posts:	329
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mcwright wrote: Patrik72 wrote: Bit confused why TORGOEN is on the list. Its an American owned company. Watch is put together in Switzerland and has a ETA G10-211 as movement.

Im referring to the T16 model in this case. I used to own one and it was a pretty nice watch.

I actually contacted the website that published this list before buying my Torgoen. I wanted an answer to why it was on their list. Never got a reply, so i bought the watch. (The reason i sold it? It was to big for my tiny wrist. 53mm from top to bottom lug.)

I recomend not to take the list too seriously.

Look at the date of the original post:

Posted: Thursday Nov 8th, 2007 11:35 AM

The original post just took up the subject and a few names on the list. But if you would of clicked in my link The Black List, then you would see that it is still up and being updated with more brands as of 2013.

Posted: Sat Oct 5th, 2013 10:27 am

Hammerfjord
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Joined:	Thu Apr 16th, 2009
Location:	Arctic, Norway
Posts:	5821
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Patrik72 wrote:
Bit confused why TORGOEN is on the list. Its an American owned company. Watch is put together in Switzerland and has a ETA G10-211 as movement.

Im referring to the T16 model in this case. I used to own one and it was a pretty nice watch.

I actually contacted the website that published this list before buying my Torgoen. I wanted an answer to why it was on their list. Never got a reply, so i bought the watch. (The reason i sold it? It was to big for my tiny wrist. 53mm from top to bottom lug.)

I recomend not to take the list too seriously.

The Black List

Patrik: Those Torgoen watches are not assembled in Switzerland and don´t wear the "Swiss-Made" only legal mark that you obtain when your watch is proven to have 50% at list of it´s cost originated from Switzerland.
I resume there...
The law past at 60% newly.
Anyway: In no places on them net-site Torgoen is stating that them watches are manufactured or cased in Switzerland.
The only Swiss mention is on the dial "SWISS" and there on the description: "The T16 is made with a Swiss made ETA chronograph quartz movement."
This "SWISS" on the dial means nothing in the legal watch world and they certainly can legally defend it´s use by saying that it describe the movement´s origin.
Those watches are most likely fully made and cased in Asia with an imported "Swiss-Made" quartz movement which might even have Asian components or partial Asian assembling.
Smoke and mirrors my friend.

Posted: Sat Oct 5th, 2013 11:46 am

Patrik72
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Joined:	Sat Aug 10th, 2013
Location:	Sweden
Posts:	329
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Hammerfjord wrote: Patrik72 wrote:
Bit confused why TORGOEN is on the list. Its an American owned company. Watch is put together in Switzerland and has a ETA G10-211 as movement.

Im referring to the T16 model in this case. I used to own one and it was a pretty nice watch.

I actually contacted the website that published this list before buying my Torgoen. I wanted an answer to why it was on their list. Never got a reply, so i bought the watch. (The reason i sold it? It was to big for my tiny wrist. 53mm from top to bottom lug.)

I recomend not to take the list too seriously.

The Black List

Patrik: Those Torgoen watches are not assembled in Switzerland and don´t wear the "Swiss-Made" only legal mark that you obtain when your watch is proven to have 50% at list of it´s cost originated from Switzerland.
I resume there...
The law past at 60% newly.
Anyway: In no places on them net-site Torgoen is stating that them watches are manufactured or cased in Switzerland.
The only Swiss mention is on the dial "SWISS" and there on the description: "The T16 is made with a Swiss made ETA chronograph quartz movement."
This "SWISS" on the dial means nothing in the legal watch world and they certainly can legally defend it´s use by saying that it describe the movement´s origin.
Those watches are most likely fully made and cased in Asia with an imported "Swiss-Made" quartz movement which might even have Asian components or partial Asian assembling.
Smoke and mirrors my friend.

Thank you! Thats an answer i can accept. But its kind of sad that the Swedish AD told me a lie then. Its from them i got my information. Im probably a bit naive to have taken their word as honest replies to my questions.

Leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, but im now happy that i sold/traded the watch. (Traded it for the Glycine Combat 6 + 500skr).

At least i have learned something by this lesson.

Posted: Sat Oct 5th, 2013 01:24 pm

Hammerfjord
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Joined:	Thu Apr 16th, 2009
Location:	Arctic, Norway
Posts:	5821
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Patrik72 wrote:
Hammerfjord wrote: Patrik72 wrote:
Bit confused why TORGOEN is on the list. Its an American owned company. Watch is put together in Switzerland and has a ETA G10-211 as movement.

Im referring to the T16 model in this case. I used to own one and it was a pretty nice watch.

I actually contacted the website that published this list before buying my Torgoen. I wanted an answer to why it was on their list. Never got a reply, so i bought the watch. (The reason i sold it? It was to big for my tiny wrist. 53mm from top to bottom lug.)

I recomend not to take the list too seriously.

The Black List

Patrik: Those Torgoen watches are not assembled in Switzerland and don´t wear the "Swiss-Made" only legal mark that you obtain when your watch is proven to have 50% at list of it´s cost originated from Switzerland.
I resume there...
The law past at 60% newly.
Anyway: In no places on them net-site Torgoen is stating that them watches are manufactured or cased in Switzerland.
The only Swiss mention is on the dial "SWISS" and there on the description: "The T16 is made with a Swiss made ETA chronograph quartz movement."
This "SWISS" on the dial means nothing in the legal watch world and they certainly can legally defend it´s use by saying that it describe the movement´s origin.
Those watches are most likely fully made and cased in Asia with an imported "Swiss-Made" quartz movement which might even have Asian components or partial Asian assembling.
Smoke and mirrors my friend.

Thank you! Thats an answer i can accept. But its kind of sad that the Swedish AD told me a lie then. Its from them i got my information. Im probably a bit naive to have taken their word as honest replies to my questions.

Leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, but im now happy that i sold/traded the watch. (Traded it for the Glycine Combat 6 + 500skr).

At least i have learned something by this lesson.

Many shops have no clue about what they are selling...
If the owner knows, you can get received by a moron who was selling flowers before arriving there the week before.
Now, for the Authorized Dealers: They should know what they sell.
Anyway: There´s still a bunch folks who don´t understand how the "Swiss-Made" been exploited since years and how much the 50% law been abused to the bone by many brands.
"Swiss-Made" brands.
They are many, have known names.
The boss of Longio been bragging a long time that they was producing cases and parts for "Luxury brands" which he will never give the names of, since it´s against the ethic between the client and him.
You can bet that those "Luxury brands" would hate to be known publicly as having them parts made in Hong-Kong.
It would put them credibility on the line and destroy them reputation.
When you compare the hour price of a Swiss watchmaker and the price of an Asian, since the law was at 50% "Swissness", you could put many hours of work in a 50% Asian and very few in the other 50% Swiss.
Resulting in a watch with a Swiss movement and all parts Chinese and legally declared as "Swiss-Made".
We are now at 60% and it´s a good thing: Still, it´s not enough to cut down the ugly business of those brands who still sell them "Schissnese" watches to us at high price, hiding the fact that they deal with Longio or others.
They don´t promise us 100% in-house and they don´t break the law.
Mose people just assume that they are "100% Swiss-Made" because people don´t know how it works behind the curtains.
This is how a 150$ Asian case&parts will be sold for 2000$+ to you after a slight finish and casing in Switzerland.
Don´t misunderstand me: The quality is there at the end but you´re not sold what you thought you bought.
You been mostly sold a brand´s name.

Posted: Sun Oct 6th, 2013 11:57 am

Patrik72
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Joined:	Sat Aug 10th, 2013
Location:	Sweden
Posts:	329
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Hammerfjord wrote:

Many shops have no clue about what they are selling...
If the owner knows, you can get received by a moron who was selling flowers before arriving there the week before.
Now, for the Authorized Dealers: They should know what they sell.
Anyway: There´s still a bunch folks who don´t understand how the "Swiss-Made" been exploited since years and how much the 50% law been abused to the bone by many brands.
"Swiss-Made" brands.
They are many, have known names.
The boss of Longio been bragging a long time that they was producing cases and parts for "Luxury brands" which he will never give the names of, since it´s against the ethic between the client and him.
You can bet that those "Luxury brands" would hate to be known publicly as having them parts made in Hong-Kong.
It would put them credibility on the line and destroy them reputation.
When you compare the hour price of a Swiss watchmaker and the price of an Asian, since the law was at 50% "Swissness", you could put many hours of work in a 50% Asian and very few in the other 50% Swiss.
Resulting in a watch with a Swiss movement and all parts Chinese and legally declared as "Swiss-Made".
We are now at 60% and it´s a good thing: Still, it´s not enough to cut down the ugly business of those brands who still sell them "Schissnese" watches to us at high price, hiding the fact that they deal with Longio or others.
They don´t promise us 100% in-house and they don´t break the law.
Mose people just assume that they are "100% Swiss-Made" because people don´t know how it works behind the curtains.
This is how a 150$ Asian case&parts will be sold for 2000$+ to you after a slight finish and casing in Switzerland.
Don´t misunderstand me: The quality is there at the end but you´re not sold what you thought you bought.
You been mostly sold a brand´s name.
Ok, now the list actually makes sense to me about why some of the brands are on it. Thanks for the great explanation, this is stuff i had no clue about.

Btw, when you say that the "quality is there". Does that mean both in the material used, and the precision work that goes into the manufacturing of the case?

Posted: Sun Oct 6th, 2013 12:32 pm

Hammerfjord
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Yes Patrik, for the cases, you can have blanks coming from Asia that will be finished in Switzerland.
They are made of the stainless-steel quality the Swiss manufacturer requires.
Sometimes, the case is fully finished in the Asian factory: They can make great quality cases who is matching the Swiss manufacture at a certain level.
The Germans are making very high grade cases: Personally, I would better appreciate a top quality hand worked German case, made from impeccable German stainless-steel from top grade alloy.
Those cases are housing movements from renown manufactures and are in my eyes, at the top of what you can get on a wrist.

I have been receiving pipes made in Asia in the oil industry.
They was in Duplex stainless-steel and was appearing totally good to me even I wondered where was my usual Swedish steel pipes...?
It went OK until the welder was complaining about a light foam effect in the melting bath of his TIG welding. No good...
This is due to impurities inside the alloy conception.
It makes the welding more difficult and supposedly not as good in quality as it should be.
Still, it passed the radiography test of porosity.

The best alloys are coming from Germany. No secret there...
It shows especially right now on the making of certain bronze alloys.
But an Asian steel will meet the minimum requirements for a watch case of good quality.
This said, the Asians been getting better those last years at producing quality cases and they would surprise you sometimes.
The main question there, is not anymore about the quality, but more about what is implied to the client somehow.
Misleading him to believe that a great brand name with a high price tag will supposedly deliver him some goods mainly manufactured by Swiss hands and therefor justifying the premium he pays.

Posted: Sun Oct 6th, 2013 01:40 pm

Patrik72
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Posts:	329
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He he, yeah does Germans know how to make steel. Been looking at Sinn. Submaringrade steel used for the case and then fill them with argon gas. (Guessing that is so no humidity can be built up inside the watch).

I know the Chinese are buying up a lot of steel, copper and aluminum from Europe. Again, im guessing this is used for their own "special projects" and the homemade metals is used for exporting. Which as you say meets the minimum requirements in quality control but will not stand up to the high grade that we produce.

For a watch its not such a big deal really, but when it comes to oil-rigs and other equipment that goes through extreme stresses. Then a probable disaster is not far away.

I have mostly worked with aluminum, quality control and later flying a desk at a different metal company. I find it strange that we sell our own metals and when we realize that opps we need more! Because there is a lack of, lets say copper. Then we buy the Chinese copper, who in the first place has bought most of the available stocks from Europe or US causing the low stocks of precious metals.

Posted: Mon Oct 7th, 2013 08:13 am

Hammerfjord
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You are right Patrik... Nothing beats German alloys in steel or other metals.
About why "we" sell too much and then re-buy: Well, there´s a lot of speculative business-men who are running the market.
Some make money, other loose money. It´s a buy and resell game with the fluctuations of bourse´s values.
Sometimes it´s getting on the frontier of idiocy...

Posted: Tue Oct 8th, 2013 01:44 pm

Patrik72
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Joined:	Sat Aug 10th, 2013
Location:	Sweden
Posts:	329
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The reason i took up this trade with metals and alloys is that if we wouldn't be in such a hurry to sell, and make fast money. Then perhaps watchmakers wouldn't have to turn to second grade metals just to meet the demands of production.

The buyer should get what he or she pays for and not just the logo. So i share your view of the "Swiss made" marketing bs that you explained so well. Makes me think twice now before buying a watch from a luxury brand, and realizing that one should not take anything for granted just because the manufacturer/seller tells you how it is.

Last edited on Tue Oct 8th, 2013 01:44 pm by Patrik72

Posted: Tue Oct 8th, 2013 05:07 pm

Hammerfjord
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Patrik72 wrote:
The reason i took up this trade with metals and alloys is that if we wouldn't be in such a hurry to sell, and make fast money. Then perhaps watchmakers wouldn't have to turn to second grade metals just to meet the demands of production.

The buyer should get what he or she pays for and not just the logo. So i share your view of the "Swiss made" marketing bs that you explained so well. Makes me think twice now before buying a watch from a luxury brand, and realizing that one should not take anything for granted just because the manufacturer/seller tells you how it is.

I hear stories Patrik, not rumors: From the inside world in Switzerland.
And I tell you: It´s ugly. But until now, no solid proof.
If I could prove some of them, I would do it anonymously or I would surely be facing serious prosecution in some courts: Those rich brands are not about to let anyone destroy them business and reputation...
China been involved since long in the making of so-called Swiss parts: It´s not a new trend at all.
The more you produce, the more it´s tempting to take short cuts.
Meet the dream-maker: Mr Mi.
He don´t lie, he just don´t say who was and are, his partners...
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2012-01/14/content_14444787.htm

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