Homage vs Fake vs Genuine - Time Talk - Time Tech Talk

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GuitarAddict
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I gotta say I don't understand all the emotion that goes with this debate on "homage" watches or why there's even a debate.

Yeah, I agree it's crossing the line if the maker copies the genuine to the point that it uses the genuine maker's name on the watch face/strap, etc, but if it only copies the look and feel and size, why is that a negative thing?

I know guys that drive replica Cobras and they're proud to do it. It's not like they're gonna say, "Thanks, I'll just wait until I can afford the REAL thing, thank you very much."

Martin guitars invented the Dreadnought guitar shape in the early 1930s. Since then every major and minor guitar maker in the world has absolutely copied the size and shape and even the construction to the point that if it weren't for the builders name on the headstock and perhaps a slightly different shaped pickguard, they would be indistinguishable from the "real" thing. Yes, Martin still makes the Dreadnought but so does does Taylor and Gibson, and Fender and so on and nobody's gripping about that.

There was a Japanese manufacturer in the 1970s that took it to the point that, while they used their name on the headstock, they copied the script, coloring, etc of Martin. They were successfully sued and had to stop. BTW, those guitars are fairly collectible now.

Anyone who has paid $5K for a top of the line Gibson Dreadnought is not going to take it very well if some yahoo comes up to him and says, "Why the copy, dude?. Can't afford a $2500 Martin?"

Some very reputable, and expensive, watchmakers build dive watches that the average person would have to look twice to see it's not a Rolex. Half a dozen reputable makers build copies of Nav B chronographs that appear virtually identical to me. Where's all the rage there?

Do people only gripe about copies if they're significantly less expensive than the real thing?

Looking at some of the other forums it seems the Panerai clones are the hot topic. And. it's usually an owner of a genuine Panerai that has the strongest reaction to the clones.

Now, I've never seen or held a genuine Panerai in person, or even a clone. And I know I'm the new person here, but, I gotta say again, I just don't get all the fuss over "homage" or "clones, or "near-copies" or whatever you want to call them. So long as they they don't say Panerai Radiomir or Luminor Mariner or whatever on the face, why does it matter?

OK, blast away at me, I can take it. :D:D:D

scottran
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Say you were self employed and you created a product and called it a widgit. You spent thousands of dollars on research and development and use only the finest materials to make your product. You have built a reputation for having a quality product that is in demand. Then comes along some schmo that just goes out and buys one of your widgits. He just makes a copy of it,(no money spent on r&d). Uses inferior materials and calls it a widgedt. He sells it for a lower price and cuts into your earnings. Do you think you may be a little pissed off??

Last edited on Thu Dec 17th, 2009 09:50 pm by scottran

mike03
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Personally, I have no problem with homage watches. Yes, some probably also make true counterfeits/replica versions but as long as the homage version has its own brand name it does not bother me. I had an Alpha PO years ago. Not a bad watch for 50 bucks and no way it was ever being confused with a real one. Omega is not losing business to Alpha and probably doesn't give them an iota of thought. Many companies make homage subs and honor a particular model with a version of their own. Some companies are held in high esteem for their versions/homages but others are vilified? Go figure. Some people get crazy emotional at the shear mention of the word "homage". Whatever flames these emotions, to each his own. Now if the discussion were about "replica watches" I would have a completely different opinion. As there are companies intentional trying to copy to the point, its nearly impossible to pick which is the real one, that is just wrong. Some of these replicas are expensive watches with many of the same features of the original. These are potentially taking away business and confusing the market. I would be very nervous buying a used high end watch on ebay or a forum for fear it might be a fake. Several people on the forums have been burned in this way. The whole replica topic gets my blood boiling but homages, I am ok with! :)

Paxman
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Your blurring the lines between a replica or copy and an homage.

Your guitar analogy doesn't really fit imho. Everyone know the tone from a Martin is going to be different from the Gibson guitar built to darn near the same spec. As you stated the Japanese copy with matching script had to cease and desist when they replicated the Dreadnought all the way.

Consider the homage... well then consider the multitude of Submariner styled dive watches one can find. The case, bracelet dial hands all may be of the same style but none actually claim the replicate the Rolex guts. You know what you are getting and no one tries to hide that fact.

A replica is just that; an exact copy usually sold to an unknowing boob. I know a guy who traded a car for a 50th anniversary sub. I looked at it and could see at least 5 points in which the replica just missed. He was ass out. The makers of replicas are in essence stealing from the known producer of the genuine article. Now I would imagine anyone who buys a Rolex off the street for $50 bucks would know its a fake so is there any harm in that?

The rant I have recently made is that you have vendors selling what you could call homages. However these very same vendors are also selling replicas. The only reason you have the proliferation of these cheap homages is the fact a WIsS won't buy a fake but will buy and damn near exact copy so long as it is sterile or marked with some sort of a branding name different from the original. My contention is that by purchasing the homage from these guys you are in essence supporting them which proliferates their business of making fakes.

Do I expect everyone who likes the look of a Rolex Sub to go out and grab one? No of course not, but they are free to purchase many very reasonably priced Swiss made homages should they choose. They will get a lot more use and pleasure out of it than the cheap replica with crap plastic movement which will stop running in a matter of months. A true WIS just wouldn't consider wearing the fake. My sister in law returned from a trip to China with two fairly good Rolex fakes; a Daytona and President. I sized them and wore them around the house for a day. I felt dirty when I was out doors with the neighbors and they commented on my new watch. Before I could even think I blurted out it was a POS fake Rolex... but that's just me. May be some other douche would have conjured a back story to go along with the fake which only makes them a fake wearing a fake.:shock:

Do yourself a favor... go the the nearest Pam AD and check them out. I do every so often and they always are ready to cut a deal. I like being married so I always head home to a cold shower.;)

And bear in mind this is just my opinion and you know what opinions are like...

Natevan70
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That's a slippery slope to tread I think. To my thinking I don't own anything I'd consider an homage. That said; I have an O&W that looks quite a bit like the older Rolex divers, and many current models from any number of makers. I think that sometimes form has to follow function- there is only so much you can do to a watch. When someone crosses the line it's like porn; you know it when you see it.

GuitarAddict
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scottran wrote:
Say you were self employed and you created a product and called it a widgit. You spent thousands of dollars on research and development and use only the finest materials to make your product. You have built a reputation for having a quality product that is in demand. Then comes along some schmo that just goes out and buys one of your widgits. He just makes a copy of it,(no money spent on r&d). Uses inferior materials and calls it a widgedt. He sells it for a lower price and cuts into your earnings. Do you think you may be a little pissed off??

Do you think a company that makes and sells $6000 watches is really losing sales because I buy an inferior quality watch for a fraction of his price?

It's a different a story if the copy uses his branding and/or uses proprietary processes and/or designs.

scottran
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GuitarAddict wrote: scottran wrote:
Say you were self employed and you created a product and called it a widgit. You spent thousands of dollars on research and development and use only the finest materials to make your product. You have built a reputation for having a quality product that is in demand. Then comes along some schmo that just goes out and buys one of your widgits. He just makes a copy of it,(no money spent on r&d). Uses inferior materials and calls it a widgedt. He sells it for a lower price and cuts into your earnings. Do you think you may be a little pissed off??

Do you think a company that makes and sells $6000 watches is really losing sales because I buy an inferior quality watch for a fraction of his price?

It's a different a story if the copy uses his branding and/or uses proprietary processes and/or designs.
As a collector of many things and a business man I am talking products in general. I also collect antique tractors, mainly John Deere. JD still holds the rights to many of their products, even ones 80 years old. Companies are only allowed to sell JD oficially licensed products. If not, Deere will have their lawyers on you so fast your head will spin. It protects JD's name and it also protects me as a collector.
I have no problems with homage watches as they arent completely replicating the original. I would be embarrassed to wear a Fauxlex.
The Cobra thing is a good question also. I dont know what to say about it. I am considering building one once the economy gets better. Up until recently I would have said no problem with the replicas because they werent building 65 Shelby Cobras anymore. But, now Shelby is making them again. One just sold at BJ in Vegas in oct. Not as valuable as an original but still a Shelby. I saw many "clones" of different cars sell at Barret Jackson and some brought decent money. I think it is becoming an acceptable practice to do this as long as you are on the up and up about the lineage of the car in the car hobby. ;)

GuitarAddict
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scottran wrote:
GuitarAddict wrote: scottran wrote:
Say you were self employed and you created a product and called it a widgit. You spent thousands of dollars on research and development and use only the finest materials to make your product. You have built a reputation for having a quality product that is in demand. Then comes along some schmo that just goes out and buys one of your widgits. He just makes a copy of it,(no money spent on r&d). Uses inferior materials and calls it a widgedt. He sells it for a lower price and cuts into your earnings. Do you think you may be a little pissed off??

Do you think a company that makes and sells $6000 watches is really losing sales because I buy an inferior quality watch for a fraction of his price?

It's a different a story if the copy uses his branding and/or uses proprietary processes and/or designs.
As a collector of many things and a business man I am talking products in general. I also collect antique tractors, mainly John Deere. JD still holds the rights to many of their products, even ones 80 years old. Companies are only allowed to sell JD oficially licensed products. If not, Deere will have their lawyers on you so fast your head will spin. It protects JD's name and it also protects me as a collector.
I have no problems with homage watches as they arent completely replicating the original. I would be embarrassed to wear a Fauxlex.
The Cobra thing is a good question also. I dont know what to say about it. I am considering building one once the economy gets better. Up until recently I would have said no problem with the replicas because they werent building 65 Shelby Cobras anymore. But, now Shelby is making them again. One just sold at BJ in Vegas in oct. Not as valuable as an original but still a Shelby. I saw many "clones" of different cars sell at Barret Jackson and some brought decent money. I think it is becoming an acceptable practice to do this as long as you are on the up and up about the lineage of the car in the car hobby. ;)

In my mind, there are two deciding criteria:

1. Is intellectual property being stolen?
2. Is there an intent to deceive?

Let's use Panerai and Precista as an example because that's really what I'm talking about.

1. Is it an issue of the design or manufacture being stolen? I don't think so (Thank God for generic medicine or I would have gone bankrupt a long time ago).
2. Does the "homage" watch list deceitful branding? No.

Therefore, I personally have no problem purchasing and wearing a Precista "homage" I do worry about some guy seeing it and taking umbrage and creating a fuss which I wouldn't take well.

Speaking of Barrett-Jackson. I'm attending in January for the first time. Really looking forward to it.

Peace

Chris

scottran
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No problem with homages like I said. Just the fakes. You will love B-J. I had a blast in Vegas. Already making plans to go to Palm Beach in april. I will have to find a way to make AZ and now they will be in CA also. See this thread for pics from Vegas. http://timetechtalk.com/view_topic.php?id=18408&forum_id=3

Ronin1111
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scottran wrote: GuitarAddict wrote: scottran wrote:
Say you were self employed and you created a product and called it a widgit. You spent thousands of dollars on research and development and use only the finest materials to make your product. You have built a reputation for having a quality product that is in demand. Then comes along some schmo that just goes out and buys one of your widgits. He just makes a copy of it,(no money spent on r&d). Uses inferior materials and calls it a widgedt. He sells it for a lower price and cuts into your earnings. Do you think you may be a little pissed off??

Do you think a company that makes and sells $6000 watches is really losing sales because I buy an inferior quality watch for a fraction of his price?

It's a different a story if the copy uses his branding and/or uses proprietary processes and/or designs.
As a collector of many things and a business man I am talking products in general. I also collect antique tractors, mainly John Deere. JD still holds the rights to many of their products, even ones 80 years old. Companies are only allowed to sell JD oficially licensed products. If not, Deere will have their lawyers on you so fast your head will spin. It protects JD's name and it also protects me as a collector.
I have no problems with homage watches as they arent completely replicating the original. I would be embarrassed to wear a Fauxlex.
The Cobra thing is a good question also. I dont know what to say about it. I am considering building one once the economy gets better. Up until recently I would have said no problem with the replicas because they werent building 65 Shelby Cobras anymore. But, now Shelby is making them again. One just sold at BJ in Vegas in oct. Not as valuable as an original but still a Shelby. I saw many "clones" of different cars sell at Barret Jackson and some brought decent money. I think it is becoming an acceptable practice to do this as long as you are on the up and up about the lineage of the car in the car hobby. ;)
I may be way off on this, but if I remember the Shelby story correct, the reason he is making them again is because he had 16-20 chassis that were serial numbered from the original line. meaning they were registered and listed as cars from the original set he built, also allowing him to build them to the same (or as close as possible in todays world) specs as the first cobras. Not Kit cars mind you. (which are more true to the watch analogy than the new cobra sales) But original cobras that were NEVER built from back in the day.
Now as far as the "homage" argument goes, I stated my case the other day, and I own 2 real pams, and 3 homages/marina militares. (but listed as those, not parnis or Panerai. ) And I am ok with it.
on a side note , I also wore a fake sub to work once that I bought in New york for like 40 bucks. (wasted drunk, not that that makes it alright) The watch looks, feels and holds time and power reserve amazingly. Yet, no one questioned me on it since I am a "watch guy" But I also couldnt help myself and had to blurt out that it was fake every time I recieved a comment on it. I too felt dirty and wrong, and literally havent worn it since. However, (and I sort of mentioned this in my other post) I have no problem wearing a Marina Militaire, and will wear my Pam the very next day. Without guilt, my pams still love me.

oagaspar
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an homage is not a replica and I think that speaks for itself and more than enough has been discussed on that subject of replicas here and not welcomed...and I think Mark/Pax spelled it out pretty good!

and Chris since you mention Precista every WIS knows when Eddie decides to build an homage it is always of a vintage watch that regardless of how much money one may have they probably will never own an original because there are just not that many available nor were made...and when you mention Panerai take a minute and think....just how many different cases do they actually use?....you can almost make a case(no pun intended) that Panerai makes homages of Panerais...:D

Eddies LE models are works of art and well thought out with just enough detail to give you the feel of what an original may be like...in many cases right down to the movements used...The PRS-20 LE vintage Panny homage used a Unitas handwind that is unrivaled by even some of the highest end watch companies and in his PRS-50 LE vintage Fifty Fathoms homage an A.Schild movement was used as in the original...it's this kind of subtle detail that makes owning one of Eddies LE's special....not to mention they hold their value and in most cases increase in value...his Dreadnought is a WIS legend and all of his LE models are very much sought after but rarely hit a sales forum and are equally as hard to buy direct if you don't act fast as they sell out overnight! ;)

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oagaspar wrote:
an homage is not a replica and I think that speaks for itself and more than enough has been discussed on that subject of replicas here and not welcomed...and I think Mark/Pax spelled it out pretty good!

and Chris since you mention Precista every WIS knows when Eddie decides to build an homage it is always of a vintage watch that regardless of how much money one may have they probably will never own an original because there are just not that many available nor were made...and when you mention Panerai take a minute and think....just how many different cases do they actually use?....you can almost make a case(no pun intended) that Panerai makes homages of Panerais...:D

Eddies LE models are works of art and well thought out with just enough detail to give you the feel of what an original may be like...in many cases right down to the movements used...The PRS-20 LE vintage Panny homage used a Unitas handwind that is unrivaled by even some of the highest end watch companies and in his PRS-50 LE vintage Fifty Fathoms homage an A.Schild movement was used as in the original...it's this kind of subtle detail that makes owning one of Eddies LE's special....not to mention they hold their value and in most cases increase in value...his Dreadnought is a WIS legend and all of his LE models are very much sought after but rarely hit a sales forum and are equally as hard to buy direct if you don't act fast as they sell out overnight! ;)

I think we're all in violent agreement. Replicas suck, homages are fine and, if you can afford it and have a desire for the genuine article, more power to you. My only point all along was, I think homages are fine and I don't know why they seem to upset some people. And they do.

I've read some very negative things on some of the other watch forums about PAM homages. Since I would very much like to have a PAM, but now can't afford it since my "retirement", I'm seriously considering tracking down a PRS-20 after the first of the year. While researching it, I came across some very strong (negative) opinions on them. I just questioned why. That's all.

As far as I'm concerned, the responses to this topic have addressed my questions. Thanks, everyone. G'nite. I'm going to bed. To dream of PAM 210 Radiomirs. Or morally and legally justifiable facsimiles thereof. :P:P:P

Chris

Hammerfjord
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The all thing comes down to patented inventions and Panerai was playing on the crown-clasp patent for exemple.
Well, patents are public or free of rights after 20-30 years I think: If I don't mistake but it may depend of the country wher it was deposed...
So after this time, most likely, you can just seat and look the others copying your invention.

I know the problem myself as I patented something last year: First of all, you get protected in the countries you pay patented rights to( It's can be a lot of $ if you want to be internationnal...To pay every year!)
Generally people depose them patent in the biggests economic countries: Mean that the other little lands can "legally" copy and use your invention in them own territory.
When you are patented, your "blue prints" come on the net(public) and make your invention even more vulnerable! What a paradoxal situation...
After that, you are by yourself: If the one who copy you(on a smart/slight way) is much richer than you and know very well the laws, you may break down economicly after a long painfull lawsuit, maybe give up before the end and loose!

Anyway, large majority of the guys who buy homages are not potential customers for the big trades. They buy homages because they can't afford the real thing: They just dream or will forever dream of it.
This is 2 worlds who nearly never meet: The world of the rich client and the world of the poor client.
From this fact: Hommages don't steal potential customers to luxurious trades. They just create even more need and maybe tempt even further the poor guy to put money on the side for buying the real thing one day.

aujang
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Hammerfjord wrote: The all thing comes down to patented inventions and Panerai was playing on the crown-clasp patent for exemple.
Well, patents are public or free of rights after 20-30 years I think: If I don't mistake but it may depend of the country wher it was deposed...
So after this time, most likely, you can just seat and look the others copying your invention.
Hammerfjord brings up a very important point regarding Panerai and its patents. I would only add that the device protecting the crown on the Luminors is also a registered trademark of Officine Panerai. So while the patent might expire I don't think a registered trademark does.

Hammerfjord
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aujang wrote:
Hammerfjord wrote: The all thing comes down to patented inventions and Panerai was playing on the crown-clasp patent for exemple.
Well, patents are public or free of rights after 20-30 years I think: If I don't mistake but it may depend of the country wher it was deposed...
So after this time, most likely, you can just seat and look the others copying your invention.
Hammerfjord brings up a very important point regarding Panerai and its patents. I would only add that the device protecting the crown on the Luminors is also a registered trademark of Officine Panerai. So while the patent might expire I don't think a registered trademark does.

And here we come to the juridic trick them came up to, when the patent was expired( Because it was deposed the oct 4th 1960 in the US)
That's how they won agaisn't RXW in Japan: With the registered trade-mark rights.
This and also a bunch of money they could use in a lawsuit...
Thanks for the note Aujang;)

aujang
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This and also a bunch of money they could use in a lawsuit...
Yup! The Richemont group can afford to hire plenty of lawyers :?

oagaspar
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and unfortunately those legal expensives are passed on to those who buy these high end brands...:(

Hammerfjord
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oagaspar wrote:
and unfortunately those legal expensives are passed on to those who buy these high end brands...:(

Absolutely...This and the millions of $ those brands use in high standard commercials with hired celebrities...
In other words...
Some people wear a watch because them saw them hero with it and pay it high price because them hero was wearing it:D

oagaspar
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and that's exactly why I wear a Tag Heuer...Tiger be my Hero! goofy

aujang
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oagaspar wrote: and that's exactly why I wear a Tag Heuer...Tiger be my Hero! goofy

oagaspar
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Tag Heuer is considering a new watch in honor of Tiger called "Tag Her" :D

aujang
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oagaspar wrote: Tag Heuer is considering a new watch in honor of Tiger called "Tag Her" :D
I need to get on a list for one

smith1792
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Speaking from a law enforcement standpoint, there is nothing illegal about an homage. As long as it's that - no markings/proofs showing/pretending to be something it's not.

Replicas or fakes are COMPLETELY illegal. This is usually due to copyrights and patents. Any infringement of a company's trademarks is punishable under the law.

Here in New Orleans, we have to deal with counterfeit tickets to sporting events and special events. Also along with that is the usually "Officially Licensed" merchandise sold at such affairs. Another problem are the guys who turn their vehicle into mobile media factories - counterfeiting movies (DVD's) and audio CD's [not Keith's Cave Dwellers].

Anyone caught doing any of the above activities is usually arrested, has their "merchandise" confiscated, and is prosecuted either municipally or criminally (depends on $ amounts). Then you can also be held liable civilly, and lose YOUR property and holdings.

I have no problem with homages - I love the Dievas Vintage CA Titanium. Just don't poop in anyone else's punchbowl.

Stu